Xantia toe in setting ?

[Mandrake]

Hi All,

Just had new tires on the front and "wheel alignment" adjusted, and it doesn't feel right to me...

I replaced both track rod ends over the last 2 weeks and so decided it would need the alignment checking but I think its now worse than my quick estimate adjustment!

When I replaced the joints I replaced them one at a time, then went for a drive to check the steering centring, adjusting the just replaced joint only to get the centring back to dead straight, then the same procedure with the second joint. After that (and still with old tyres on) I was very happy with the feel of the steering - the wheel was exactly straight ahead, it pulled to the centre under acceleration and "felt" like it had the right amount of toe based on the self centring strength. Not very scientific I know, but...

Now after the new tyres and "alignment" the centring of the steering wheel for straight ahead is off by quite a bit maybe 10 degrees or so, and the car seems to drift to the right particularly under acceleration, and it was NOT doing this before.

I've just been out and adjusted the track rod ends an equal amount to re-centre the steering and its obvious based on counting the visible threads (which I counted when I fitted the joints) that they only adjusted the right hand track rod, and did so by lengthening it by a couple of turns...(originally both track rods had the same number of exposed threads)

After my adjustment the wheel is now centred, but it still drifts to the right sometimes, doesn't pull positively to the centre and still pulls a little bit to the right under acceleration, which as I say it wasn't doing before the tires/alignment, I was quite careful to note the behaviour of the car on the trip there...in fact the steering and handling felt spot on on the trip on the way there.

My question is whether the Xantia is toe IN (wheels pointing together pigeon toed) or toe OUT. (wheels pointing away from each other at the front) I ask this because the data I have for the Xantia says 0 to -3 mm, 0° at -0°25', and I'm under the impression that a negative figure like -3mm is toe OUT. Can anyone confirm that for me ? If it is toe OUT, does anyone know why ? And why some older Citroens like the GS were toe IN ? Toe in seems to make more sense to me...

If it is toe out as I believe, their adjustment has dramatically reduced the toe out - 2 turns is a lot. I probably shouldn't, but I'm very tempted to undo the change that they've made, as I have no confidence in the accuracy of what has been done...

Can someone also confirm for me how a toe in/out figure stated in mm is actually measured ? Not that I have anything to measure it with, but it would be nice to know. I was under the impression the distance between the side-wall of the front inner edge of left and right tyres was compared to the distance between the back inner edge of the side-walls and the difference in mm is the figure, with a positive figure meaning the rear distance is longer than the front, eg toe in. Correct ?

[Xantidote]

Hi Simon,

I'm assuming you are talking about the V6. Can't help as such, except that in my Haynes, which says it Doesn't cover the V6, gives 0 to 3mm (0 degrees 00 to 0 degrees 25') TOE-OUT (ie. for most Xantia models).

It also says (which I didn't know), and I quote " The front wheel toe setting is checked by measuring the distance between the front and rear inside edges of the roadwheel rims"

It also makes the comment about ride height being correct, full fuel tank, + tyre pressures, wheel bearings & steering all being OK.

Hope that helps a little - good luck

[KennyW]

Simon ,

I set my alignment as straight ahead with 0 degree toe out.

Kenny

[NewcastleFalcon]

Simon

When I changed my steering rack I thought about starting a new thread on DIY wheel alignment . I felt sure that there would be some innovative ideas on how to DIY with cheap homemade apparatus.

A quick search on the forum though and found Peter N's contribution from this thread

Peter N
I use a length of conduit tube with a threaded rod slid into it and adjust the tracking myself. If one extremity of the setting is 'parrallel' , adjust the length of the rod untill it just touches the inside of the tyres at wheel rim level at the front, then transfer it to the back, its quite easy to feel if the distance is the same, takes about five minutes. If it needs adjusting, alter the length of the side that will bring the steering wheel to straight ahead, if it already is, adjust each track rod by the same amount.

If you look at the spec you will find that parallel is within tolerance, but its quite easy to adjust the the required tow in/out using this method. I have been doing it this way for around 30 years and and getting on for 1,000,000 miles and my tyres always wear evenly.

I have found that adjustable clothes props from Wilkinsons can also be used in this context from the motoring discussion boards on "Honest John"

Thanks

Neil

[rory_perrett]

Front wheel drive cars tend to be toe out, rear wheel drive toe in.
Like kenny I set mine Xantia to zero to very slight toe out.

[Old-Guy]

I've set the tracking on several cars (including both Xantias) borrowing the use of an 'old-fashioned' optical/mechanical tracking gauge. I found that it's vital to prepare the car properly:

Correct tyre pressures all round
Measure on a flat surface with no side slope
Drive straight ahead into position
Position the 'gauge' horizontally on the rims (NOT tyres) at the same height each side - preferably across the wheel centre.

Each time the tracking is adjusted, drive (or push) the car straight backwards at least one complete wheel revolution and then dead straight forwards back into the same position before re-measuring. If this isn't done, the suspension will be heavily and unevenly loaded sideways. I'm sure this is why tyre/exhaust fitters often make such a bog of tracking.

[Mandrake]

Simon

When I changed my steering rack I thought about starting a new thread on DIY wheel alignment . I felt sure that there would be some innovative ideas on how to DIY with cheap homemade apparatus.

A quick search on the forum though and found Peter N's contribution from this thread

Peter N
I use a length of conduit tube with a threaded rod slid into it and adjust the tracking myself. If one extremity of the setting is 'parrallel' , adjust the length of the rod untill it just touches the inside of the tyres at wheel rim level at the front, then transfer it to the back, its quite easy to feel if the distance is the same, takes about five minutes. If it needs adjusting, alter the length of the side that will bring the steering wheel to straight ahead, if it already is, adjust each track rod by the same amount.

If you look at the spec you will find that parallel is within tolerance, but its quite easy to adjust the the required tow in/out using this method. I have been doing it this way for around 30 years and and getting on for 1,000,000 miles and my tyres always wear evenly.

I have found that adjustable clothes props from Wilkinsons can also be used in this context from the motoring discussion boards on "Honest John"

Thanks

Neil

Hi Neil,

Yes that reminds me of a gadget my Dad made years ago for measuring wheel alignment - basically an aluminium rod the width of the car, on each end a short rod coming off at right angles with an adjustable and lockable sliding joint, the piece at right angles was about 6 inches long then had a small right angle bend just at the end so that the tip of the end of that rod could rest neatly and accurately against the tyre sidewall. The point of the 6 inch long piece was so that the main rod could reach under the body of the car yet you were still measuring the halfway height of the wheel...worked well, but I no longer have access to it, or the bits to make a copy...

[Mandrake]

I've set the tracking on several cars (including both Xantias) borrowing the use of an 'old-fashioned' optical/mechanical tracking gauge. I found that it's vital to prepare the car properly:

Correct tyre pressures all round
Measure on a flat surface with no side slope
Drive straight ahead into position
Position the 'gauge' horizontally on the rims (NOT tyres) at the same height each side - preferably across the wheel centre.

Each time the tracking is adjusted, drive (or push) the car straight backwards at least one complete wheel revolution and then dead straight forwards back into the same position before re-measuring. If this isn't done, the suspension will be heavily and unevenly loaded sideways. I'm sure this is why tyre/exhaust fitters often make such a bog of tracking.

I agree completely. I don't know what I thought I was doing getting wheel alignment done at a tyre fitter. I guess because I had replaced both track rods without any proper way to measure I thought I had better get it done, but normally I would only ever get a specialist wheel alignment place to do it (the kind that actually gives you a before and after print out off all the readings) or do it myself!

Lets see how these guys did by your checklist:

1) Correct tire pressures ? No. When I got home and checked them the fronts were 31psi instead of 34 as clearly written on the door card...
2) Measure on a flat surface ? Yes, I think so, it was on a hoist.
3) Drive straight ahead onto ramp ? Yes.
4) Position the gauge on the rims instead of the tire sidewalls ? Nope.
5) Drive the car back and forth between each measurement ? Nope, not that I could see, and I was watching with one eye.

As I mentioned before they only adjusted the right hand track rod end, they also gave no printout of what the wheel alignment was before or after.

Basically useless. I've learnt my lesson...

[Mandrake]

One further disaster today - I didn't notice it at first because I didn't drive home on a 70mph road, but when I went into Glasgow tonight between 70-80mph the car was shaking so badly that I thought a wheel was going to fall off, (felt exactly like the time I left some wheel nuts loose a few years ago ) I actually checked all the wheel nuts were tight when I got off the motorway, which they were. The steering wheel was vibrating badly too, worst at 75mph.

Straight away I'm thinking they stuffed up the wheel balancing as well as the wheel alignment, but on a hunch I decided to check something - I jacked up one front corner at a time so I could spin the front wheel - put it into drive so the free hanging wheel could spin at a decent speed and sure enough - the front left tire tread is distorted badly out of round, I would say by between 5 and 10mm.

The front right one whilst not as bad is still quite visibly out of round. By comparison the junky old tires on the back are almost perfectly round when spun by hand. Questions:

1) Is the tyre being significantly out of round enough to cause a scary car shaking vibration even if they got the dynamic wheel balance right ? (My feeling is yes)

2) How can this be the case on two brand new tires, indeed, supposedly good quality Michelins ? (I ended up getting Michelin Energy Saver 205/60/15/91V, and I've never had a bad pair of Michelins before) Would it be a manufacturing defect, or damage while fitting ? As far as I could see the tyre bead was fitted properly onto the rim and is running straight and true, the sidewall of the tire looks fine, but looked at from the side the tread of the tire is bobbing up and down a good 5-10 mm, as if the outer part of the tire is compressed in places.

The only time I've ever seen a tire out of round like this was a spare tire which had been damaged by years of exhaust heat in the spare tire tray - it was visibly out of round too, and vibrated quite badly even when fitted on the back.

3) Why didn't they notice its so far out of round when it was on the balancing machine ? My guess is they did but because the tires were special order and not in stock on their shelf they decided to keep quiet about it and hope I didn't notice...They took an awful long time, almost two hours for 2 new tires, 4 wheels balanced and wheel tracking, and they spent a suspiciously long time at the balancing machine as if they were having difficulty...

I guess its a phone call back to the place tomorrow to insist they order another pair in time for Wednesday, which is my only chance to go back next week. Sigh.

On the plus side, I've successfully fitted new hand brake cables today, but I'll save that saga for another thread!

[Peter.N.]

An interesting thing that I discovered recently is that not only will uneven tyre wear cause the car to pull to one side but apparantly good tyres can do the same because presumably they are faulty. I bought an XM about four years ago which pulled to the o/s, I could find nothing in the way of damage or misalignment so I have put up with it all this time, it needed a new n/s tyre for the MOT this year, when fitted it steered as straight as a die. I never suspected the tyres because it had a pair of new Goodyears on it when I bought it.

Peter

[Mandrake]

An interesting thing that I discovered recently is that not only will uneven tyre wear cause the car to pull to one side but apparantly good tyres can do the same because presumably they are faulty. I bought an XM about four years ago which pulled to the o/s, I could find nothing in the way of damage or misalignment so I have put up with it all this time, it needed a new n/s tyre for the MOT this year, when fitted it steered as straight as a die. I never suspected the tyres because it had a pair of new Goodyears on it when I bought it.

Yep any difference between the left and right front tires can cause pulling to one side, I've had that problem before too. Now that I've found the left tire is so badly out of round I'm quite prepared to believe the difference between the two tires is the reason for it pulling to the right at higher speeds. It certainly wasn't doing that before - with the cruddy old (but presumably well matched) tires it pulled straight ahead, especially after I had replaced the duff track rod end.

[Mandrake]

An update on the tire situation, I thought I'd try to record some video of the out of round tires, and blow me down, the front left tire which very obviously worse than the right tire, is now far better. Not quite running true but nothing like the 10mm it seemed like yesterday. Is it possible that a flat spot on a new tire can normalise after the tires have been driven a bit ? The right tire still seems to have a significant wobble. Youtube links:

Left tire:

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Right tire:

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I still think the right one doesn't look very good, but is it enough to explain a really bad (worst I've ever encountered on any car) shake at 75mph that feels like loose wheel nuts, or is it just a case of them completely screwing up the wheel balance on one or more wheels ?

Should there be any balance weights on the outside of an alloy rim ? All the weights are on the inner rim edge. I've seen adhesive weights on the inside near the outside edge on alloys before, but they haven't added any on these.

Is it possible the wheel somehow isn't centring properly on the hub ? I have had both wheels off then on again when I came back from the tire fitters while I was fitting handbrake cables... its going to be Wednesday now before I can get back to the fitters to have the wheel balance rechecked.

[Peter.N.]

The left one looks OK to me but there is definitly run out on the right one. I have had quite a few tyres with ply seperation causing this problem over the years. I think its definitly the tyre that's out because it only seems to be in one place.

The strange thing about the Goodyears was that the balance was near enough perfect but the n/s one wore down to the canvas on the inside edge, the other tyre was worn normally, in fact its still on there, and tracking was spot on.

I think all my wheels only have weights on the inside.

Peter

[Xantidote]

Should there be any balance weights on the outside of an alloy rim

I've certainly seen C5 adverts on eBay where there are balance weights on the outer rim - but doesn't mean it's the correct procedure. Can't do the alloy rims any good (physical damage, and encouraging corrosion), which is maybe why some balance weights are stuck on.

The tyre place which balances my Xantia's steelies always fixes weights to both inner & outer rims.

[Old-Guy]

It's not unusual for new tyres to show some minor distortion as a result of poor storage. This normally comes out once the tyres are fitted and inflated. I guess your tyres had been in store for a while - look for a date code on the tyre walls, something like 3411 (week 34, 2011) - so the 'set' was more permanent.

It's normal practice to inflate a new tyre really hard to fully settle the beads onto the rim, and then to reduce the pressure to (the fitter's guess at) the normal pressure. A complete waste of time trying to balance a tyre which was badly out of round and changing shape while being 'balanced'!

When setting up an electronic tyre balancer, the operator feeds in wheel type (alloy or steel), weight location (on the bead or inside), rim size and offset. When the wheel is spun-up, the machine provides a pair of readings for outer and inner locations - circumferential position (rotate the wheel by hand until indicator lights go out) and the required balance weight in grams. Several 'goes' are needed; first with all weights removed, fit whichever weight is heaviest, re-run, fit the other side, re-run and adjust as necessary. If the first weight is quite heavy, a certain amount of fiddling around may be necessary to get a good balance - to the nearest 5gm (steel), 2 or 3gm (alloy) weight.

Ring your supplier and complain but say that you can't take the car in for a week or so. This will give both tyres a reasonable chance to come back into round if they are going to do so, but they'll still need rebalancing. If either tyre is still visibly distorted after a week of use, politely demand a replacement - it's a primary safety issue as well as a matter of faulty goods 'not fit for the purpose' - the onus is on the supplier to find sound replacements acceptable to you.

I can say from personal experience that a distorted tyre can produce the most horrendous shaking - years ago one of my Montegos was factory-fitted with Dunlops from a dud batch that suffered from ply separation under the treads. Hopefully, you'll be experiencing the reverse symptoms - distortion (and thus vibration) rapidly decreasing rather than increasing.