Using an XUD for power generation..

KP · Unread post by KP » 25 Feb 2007, 12:03

Ive had a corny idea to get hold of an old XUD engine, probably an XUD9BTE or the like with a bosch pump and turbo.

Give it a good clean out and flush the coolant system on the engine and use it to generate some power.

Now i'm thinking of using the normal engine mounts to a metal fram and then mount that frame using some more engines mounts to some kind of steel chassis on skids.
Obviously id probably strip the engine down and build it back up using new bits and rings and the like.
This whole lot would then be encase in a larger steel case that i would then have bolted down to the skids and then have another case over that one, possibly using some roofing felt to help with sound insulation.

The engine would then run on WVO, using the cooling circuit to heat up the processing plant and thus powering itself.

Now ive worked out roughly for a small house it would need to generate about 33mw when everything is on in the house so id have to rig up some kind of load sensor that could then control the throttle on the engine.
I would use 2 radiators from a Xantia as backups that would also have a control valve on them so if the water temprature kicks in to 90' then it opens and allows the water to circulate.

Now i was thinking of using a XUD11BTE engine but the pumps on them dont seem to be as strong and then id still have to find a mechanical pump and not the electronic ones to make things a lot easier, the other advantage is parts seem easier and cheaper for the 1.9 engine

Now the idea is it would only cost me the parts, time to set it all up and then the time getting the WVO and having it all filter out and made usable.
This would be the main source of power but i would probably have some solar panels as well on a southerly facing wall and a wind turbine or two about as well so that on the days i have to drain the oil out and do a quick service on the thing then the house would still have some power to get by as i reckon an hour would suffice to remove the two shells and then drain the oil out whip the filter off and stick a new filter and new load of oil in.

Now its not feesable just yet as we would need a much bigger garden, as well as having the two shells id probably have some form of trellace(spelling) and such like with plants growing up it to help act as a sound barrier.

Anyone ever thought of this at all or got any tips/thoughts on it?

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 25 Feb 2007, 13:32

My first thought : great idea

On a second thought naaa...

On a third thought : you will end up in numerous technical troubles

Why ?

1) Any standard vehicle engine is designed to operate a mobile vehicle under a very wide range of operating conditions. This in turn makes the engine un-suitable for a plant power source. Its simply not opted to run in a very narrow operation conditon range - suffering lots and lots on the running economy.

2) you can of course do lots of good brains in heat exchange to the exhaust and coolant - but you will end up in some very nasty pollution problems with condensed sooth and acid from the exhaust - eating up any smart heat exchanger system.

3) the electric mains power needed is not 33mW (33 milliWatt

) - but 33kW (33kiloWatt) continous power at a maximum electric consumption. That is pretty much the engine's power capacity at full load.
You need a pretty hefty alternator to convert mechanical energy into electrical energy. Try ask around for price levels for such alternators - usually found in windmills.

4) Electric power for standard mains powered aplliances requires a narrow specification on the power : must be within certain voltage limits (240V +5/-10 %), and the frequency of the alternating voltage must be kept within certain limits (50HZ +/- 1%). This in turn means either a rather elaborated electric power converter system - or a sensitive engine (alternator) rpm controlling system.
Meaning its not just 'throttling' the engine when power is needed

5) You would have a rather high 'standby' loss, as you can not shut down your power plant when no energy is needed. At least you then would accept annoying startup delays when switching on a light source - or a coffee machine.

I have to say that ready constructed and available home power units are much (I mean hugely) more energy efficient - and reliable - and cheap.
Around here you can get a small craftsman unit (1kilowatt) driven by a 1cylinder 4stroke petrol engine - at approx £180.
Or for occasional use only : an automotive 12V - 230V (1kW) converter at approx £110.

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 25 Feb 2007, 15:14

Sample alternator prices:

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/searc ... tor/page/1
Presumably the single phase are 250 volt and the 3 phase - 440.

I believe the accepted guideline is that both engine and generator should be capable of 2 X the intended maximum load.

33 KW seem a very high load. I think the average domestic supply is much less than this. Its very inefficientl to heat anything by generated electricity (water and ovens for example) However heating water is a primitive way of storing energy - so ideal for a wind turbine's spare capacity.

Your exhaust could run through a heat exchanger for hot water and heating.

For sound proofing I'd be tempted to put it underground in a pit with enough room for minor maintenance and a hoist for major! Careful attention will have to be paid to air intakes and exhaust which will breach the sound deadening. This can be done with a comprehensive baffle system - I used to work in a factory which had a bulk flour and sugar supplies powered by high volume low pressure air system - which had 5 very powerful and large air blowers. They were quite quiet from outside with all the doors shut and intake baffles in place but were extremely loud with them open.

KP · Unread post by KP » 25 Feb 2007, 15:27

The underground idea seems good.

Heres some more ideas on the project....

ok so thats 33kw, which is me factoring in that everything in the house would be on at the time and for NON-efficient devices, like energy saving bulbs, good rated oven, washing machine, fridge/freezer. the other thing is finding some form of battery backup as well for the time i take the unit offline for servicing. the idea of the car engine is that the parts are easy to get hold of, servicing is good and the engines seem to last high miles/long hours of operation.

Just also thought the exhaust will generate a lot of heat so i was thinking i could use this to heat something like the processing plant using something like small diameter pipe around the exhaust just after the turbo and around the silencer box's as well(i intend to have 3 for less noise from the exhuast)though i think i would probably have to start the piping around the exhaust after 2 flexi sections of exhaust to ensure there is enough movement for the engine and then either end of the piping around the exhaust use some flexi to connect onto the feed and outlets so there is some movement allowed there as well. this could be the source used to heat the processing plant instead of takign heat away from the house and its hot water and heating.

Thats a cool idea now as i thought it would just about generate enough heat to warm up a garage and about 60' of plumbing to the garage as well but maybe some under floor heating as well

New idea regarding the heating is that a small pipe, maybe about 2cm diameter would go thru the veg storage tank to heat the veg up, then there would be another pipe feeding off to the processing plants to heat that upto about 50'c to do the waste veggie oil washing and filtering and the like, then the rest of the heat could be used for the garage and a hot water boiler in the garage. then if its still boiling those up try having an expansion tank which is heated by the water as well and then a pump could then pump the heated water round the house. idea being keeping the cooling circuit for the diesel engine seperate and using that circuit to heat other circuits up, thus not having one whole big system as if a leak occurs somewhere the other systems can carry on working

KP · Unread post by KP » 25 Feb 2007, 15:29

Also just thought that it wouldnt need to generate 240 as the UK only do 230v AFAIK so thats a bit sorted there, id factor a few % for cable loss and also for the inverters and the like...

howiedean · Unread post by **howiedean** » 25 Feb 2007, 17:31

jeremy wrote:Sample alternator prices:

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/searc ... tor/page/1
Presumably the single phase are 250 volt and the 3 phase - 440.

I believe the accepted guideline is that both engine and generator should be capable of 2 X the intended maximum load.

33 KW seem a very high load. I think the average domestic supply is much less than this. Its very inefficientl to heat anything by generated electricity (water and ovens for example) However heating water is a primitive way of storing energy - so ideal for a wind turbine's spare capacity.

Your exhaust could run through a heat exchanger for hot water and heating.
For sound proofing I'd be tempted to put it underground in a pit with enough room for minor maintenance and a hoist for major! Careful attention will have to be paid to air intakes and exhaust which will breach the sound deadening. This can be done with a comprehensive baffle system - I used to work in a factory which had a bulk flour and sugar supplies powered by high volume low pressure air system - which had 5 very powerful and large air blowers. They were quite quiet from outside with all the doors shut and intake baffles in place but were extremely loud with them open.

If you can use the system as a combined heat and power unit, you will get much more efficiency out of the system. Ideally you would be able to connect the system up to your central heating system as mentioned above (through a heat exchanger).
I know someone who has done this type of setup but have not got his details to hand. I'll try and get some info for you. For interest though I did an Open University course last year and some of the books are very good with real life calculations and lots of ideas.

http://www.open.ac.uk/T206/index.htm

regards

KP · Unread post by KP » 25 Feb 2007, 17:38

Cheers howie ill hjave to look into that.

FrenchLeave · Unread post by **FrenchLeave** » 25 Feb 2007, 18:01

Why not couple the engine cooling system direct into the heating coil of the hot water tank? That would do away with the need for radiators (very wasteful). As long as you bond each section of pipe electrically to avoid potential differences there should be no corrosion problems.

KP · Unread post by KP » 25 Feb 2007, 18:18

Hi Frenchleave,

I was thinking teh rads would be more as a backup for summer incase the engine ever gets too hot and cant dump the heat off thru the other mediums i have intended, ie thru exhaust heat exhcange and coolant heat exchange and the like...

It may even generate enuogh heat for a small poly tunnell in winter as well

Sl4yer · Unread post by **Sl4yer** » 25 Feb 2007, 19:34

One question - why a turbo engine? The non-turbo engine would probably be more efficient for your application (especially at low loads). Is it really worth having an engine capable of twice your expected load? Cooling would be simpler too.

James

KP · Unread post by KP » 25 Feb 2007, 20:28

The reasoning im thinking of the turbo engine is they already ahve the bosche pump on them and the torque from them is much greater than the SD engine when there is a full load as the engine would only need to kick in at peak times as the rest would be stored energy from a wind turbine and solar panels and the like. asked on here as well

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/for ... 1#pid14643

Sl4yer · Unread post by **Sl4yer** » 25 Feb 2007, 20:47

Fair enough then!

Interesting comment about the damage caused low voltage. Our old alarm system was killed by low voltage (the mains went to about 50V at a guess)!

James

KP · Unread post by KP » 25 Feb 2007, 20:53

Yeah its not as easy as it seems but i think it would work out well over a few years and use up loads of old veggie oil

and IIRC no tax as its used on private land and the like...

The only thing is the IPCC licence fee thing for filtering the wasted stuff...

uhn113x · Unread post by **uhn113x** » 26 Feb 2007, 16:35

33kW at 240v? 33000/240 = 137.5 amps - the service fuse in most houses is 60 amps.

You would have to have close control of the 50Hz mains frequency as well, so you cannot control the output by throttling the engine back, so that really means that you cannot feed the alternator directly for output.

I see a load of car batteries, DC generator and crystal controlled inverter.

IMHO, not worth the hassle.

KP · Unread post by KP » 26 Feb 2007, 19:06

Well im thinking that everything would come off the batteries and thus the engine is just there to charge them up when they run under 50% and heat things up as well in the house in cold periods and thus i can then use an inverter to control the flow of electric more closely as well and if i run the engine more by putting electric back into the grid and getting some money from it then

33kva was a rough over estimation on everything in the house being on and load at once as well.....

But if it kicked that amount of power out then it would be certainly putting a lot back into the grid a lot of the time...