Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

[mickthemaverick]

Amazing what you can do in a 'snippet of time' Zel, that would be a good day's work for most of us!!

[CitroJim]

Excellent work Zel

[Zelandeth]

Amazing what you can do in a 'snippet of time' Zel, that would be a good day's work for most of us!!

In fairness I owe that mostly to how easy to work on this engine is - aside from a couple of moderately awkward fasteners it all comes apart/goes together very logically.

I threw the ignition system back together this afternoon (with a shim in the ignition coil bracket... I'll fix it properly another day when I'm not so pushed for time). Sure enough after a little fiddling around with the choke as the cable isn't hooked up yet, had the engine running pretty quickly.

On about four cylinders. With visible bubbling along the edges of the head to block join.



I will triple check my work tomorrow, but I suspect I may have an answer in front of me to the question of whether the head needed some machine work. One suggestion that's also been made is that I should have annealed the gasket before installing it...if indeed that is required that would indeed explain how it's so much worse now than where we started out.

That step isn't mentioned in either of the manuals I've got though nor on the suppliers listing. I know I've done this when reusing metal gaskets on some small engines or the flat copper ones on an old flathead Ford V8...but it's definitely not something I've ever had to do to a new out the box gasket. They've always been ready to go. So I don't feel entirely stupid for not having twigged that was something I might need to do. If that's the case though fair enough. Lesson learned. I fully expect there to be some learning experiences working on a car with it's design roots back in the 40s and this may be today's one. Not the end of the world so long as the head hasn't been damaged - gasket is only £15 and it's probably an hour and a half of work to pull and reinstall it again.

Probably the most painful part is going to be having to change the oil and most of the coolant again! I'm glad I only put enough oil in to get a safe reading on the dipstick now so that won't kick me in the wallet quite so badly.

I need to do some digging to confirm whether I DO need to treat the gasket in any way though. Only comments either of the manuals I have make is that I absolutely must not use any jointing or sealant compounds on it. If it is indeed supposed to be good to go there's obviously something else in play.

So not a particularly cheerful update, but I'm not too bothered. Every day's a school day after all.

[CitroJim]

Sorry to read this latest update Zel

A new copper gasket should not need to be annealed but that said, if it's new old stock and is of a considerable age despite being unused than yes, it might well need it.

Also, recheck the head and block is truly flat...

Many steps forward, just one small one back...

[mickthemaverick]

I agree with Jim on that. As for controlling the spend on fluids you may find the problem has only caused leakage to the air and no cross contamination has occurred thus enabling reuse.

[Zelandeth]

Gasket is a new production rather than new old stock, and is stamped steel rather than copper, if that makes any difference.

[Gibbo2286]

Did you lubricate the bolts before installing them, it's usually recommended to use molybdenum grease on bolts for aluminium heads?

[CitroJim]

If it's steel, then it should not need any annealing Zel...

It may need some kind of gasket cement on it such as Wellseal. The gasket may be fully sealing the cylinders compression-wise (does the gasket have fire rings?) but the small lands on the periphery of the gasket sealing oil and water passages may need help from gasket cement to help seal them, especially if the lands are narrow... Is there evidence of coolant being pressurised or oil being burned when running?

Eric, you make a good point on lubricating studs. Also, did you blow the the treaded holes clear and clean Zel? A bit of debris can cause the head not to torque down correctly, as can dry studs.

[Zelandeth]

All of the bolt holes were cleaned out and blown clear using compressed air. The manual is very clear that under no circumstances should any sealing or jointing compounds be applied to the gasket (even going to the lengths of capital letters to get that point across).

Again I'm probably showing my knowledge bias towards generally working on newer equipment where the documentation tends to be very prescriptive about whether any torque critical fasteners are to be assembled dry or with a very specific lubricant on them, so I went with not as there wasn't any mention of it. If a dab of oil/grease on either the thread or head of the bolt is likely to be missing in this case that should be something that's easy enough to resolve at least.

Not sure if anything was being burned/mixing at that point as it was clear something wasn't right - so the engine has only run for maybe 90 seconds so far. I'll check what the respective fluids look like later on.

[CitroJim]

he manual is very clear that under no circumstances should any sealing or jointing compounds be applied to the gasket (even going to the lengths of capital letters to get that point across).

In that case, definitely best to go with what the manual says, especially if capitalised...

[Zelandeth]

To be honest one thing I really do need to pick up is a halfway decent manual. I've got two here, but one is old enough to be lacking any information on the later variants, the other which does is an Autobooks document which seems to be very sparse in information in a lot of areas. It also tends to have diagrams many pages away from the paragraphs which actually relate to them for absolutely no reason I can see which makes it really hard to follow. Not helped by the diagrams often not following the same sequence as the text. The head bolt tightening sequence diagrams for instance are all clumped together in one column - but the diagrams for each of the engines are in a totally different sequence to the order in which the engines are referred to in the text.

The wiring diagram was absolutely awful as well - though I went and fixed that myself already!

[CitroJim]

Oh yes, I remember those Autobooks from back in the day... Never really up to the (then) high standards of the Haynes Manuals...

Did Haynes ever do a P4 manual?

[Gibbo2286]

There's been a few Rover factory workshop manuals on ebay recently, not cheap though, an example: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/236329096842 ... c7c5ad582f

[Zelandeth]

Oh yes, I remember those Autobooks from back in the day... Never really up to the (then) high standards of the Haynes Manuals...

Did Haynes ever do a P4 manual?

Aye, they're better than nothing but often finding the information you need is an exercise in frustration - the index is less than useless which doesn't help!

I don't *think* Haynes ever did one for the P4.

There's been a few Rover factory workshop manuals on ebay recently, not cheap though, an example: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/236329096842 ... c7c5ad582f

Unless you're really after a period correct one that does seem rather over the odds to pay - especially given that there's a current reprint of that manual available off the shelf from Wadham's for £35. Probably elsewhere too, but that's where I actively remember seeing it.

[CitroJim]

I'd definitely go for the reprint... The old originals could now be quite delicate and not up to being used in anger...

£35 seems a good price knowing a bit about what goes into printing and publishing a book...