Energy Matters Global and Domestic

[Gibbo2286]

This lady's video is a fair bit better than many.

[NewcastleFalcon]

This lady's video is a fair bit better than many.

I agree Gibbo. Did you just watch it today or have you been doing a bit of research?

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If you edit your post and take the [url]   [/url]  off your youtube link it embeds automatically.

Regards Neil

[Gibbo2286]

It followed on from the previous one posted so I just let it run.

[mickthemaverick]

Not a pretty picture from Dave this week!

[Gibbo2286]

And then along came Jones.

[NewcastleFalcon]

The price of gas is surely is going to curtail demand on pure individual economic grounds in domestic homes. Apart from a reaction from individuals to manage the enormous price increases by looking for ways to use less gas, no great action as yet is happening to massively accelerate domestic heating/hot water away from gas.

This is what Vattenfall the Swedish giant have come up with, the high temperature heat pump

Straight swap with conventional gas boiler means no additional costly retrofitting beyond the heat pump installation

Sounds like just the type of development required. (bit short on detail)

https://group.vattenfall.com/uk/newsroo ... as-boilers

Regards Neil

[mickthemaverick]

That may well be a plan worth considering for emission reduction but not necessarily for economic benefit. The laws of physics define that to heat a given space to a given temperature will require a measurable amount of energy. If the device which converts the supplied energy to the required heat energy is less efficient then it will require a greater amount supplied to it to achieve the same temperature. Thus while good for the environment you may end up drawing more energy from the electricity grid than you did from the gas grid, which will inevitably cost more than drawing the same energy from electicity as you did from gas. Hence the whole economy of switching to emission free heating will depend on the energy efficiency of the conversion system chosen.

[NewcastleFalcon]

The relative prices of Electrical energy and Gas energy also comes in and is the economic reason why gas boilers dominate due to the fact that the "negative externalities" of burning fossil fuels have never been reflected in the price paid by consumers for gas. Only now with the enormous increase in gas prices is an economic/strategic/and environmental switch from gas to electric heating facilitated.

The heat pump itself facilitates a transfer of energy so 1kW of electrical energy can produce over 3kW of heat energy by sourcing heat energy from the air/ground.

Gas boilers are efficient but never achieve 100% efficiency from the chemical energy when burned.

Regards Neil

[mickthemaverick]

It will be interesting to see what efficiency can be achieved by the heat pump, but you must also remember that in thermal energy output terms the heatpump is subsidised by the heat energy present in the air to begin with. So while all the heat output from a gas boiler is derived from the supplied gas, the heat pumps output is as a result of the combination of heat energy in the environment and electrical energy used to extract it. In other words a proportion of the output of the heat pump is free energy and if the devices are able to make that balance out the extra gas used to produce the same output such that the cost of electricity equals the cost of gas for a given room temperature then the conversion becomes a no brainer for the benefits to the environment assuming the electricity is from sustainable sources. My brain hurts now!

[bobins]

Gas boilers are efficient but never achieve 100% efficiency from the chemical energy when burned.

Regards Neil

I was chatting to my gas fitter yesterday as he finished commissioning my new boiler. Mine was running at 98.8% combustion efficiency, and he reckoned Worcester Bosch had managed 105% efficiency in trials

[NewcastleFalcon]

Gas boilers are efficient but never achieve 100% efficiency from the chemical energy when burned.

Regards Neil

I was chatting to my gas fitter yesterday as he finished commissioning my new boiler. Mine was running at 98.8% combustion efficiency, and he reckoned Worcester Bosch had managed 105% efficiency in trials

I see, in a similar way "heat can be extracted from the incoming air" to give that extra "efficiency", but nowhere near a similar efficiency measure for a heat pump hitting 300% and more.

https://www.kane.co.uk/knowledge-centre ... efficiency

Regards Neil

[mickthemaverick]

It seems to me that various sources are using odd calculations to quote efficiency
The concept of 300% efficiency is not real. That would imply that a device outputs 3 times as much energy as it takes in. As we all know Energy cannot be created, nor destroyed, merely converted from one form to another. That simple rule defines that you cannot get more out than you put in so 300% is meaningless.
Secondly in the discussion on gas boilers it does not mention the efficiency of the heat exchanger within the boiler which is used to transfer the heat from the directly heated water to the closed circuit central heating system.
I do tend to get frustrated with companies who make various claims based on figures which they believe will baffle the consumer with science!!

[NewcastleFalcon]

There is a sister thread to this one which attempted to pull together some information on heat pumps, but much cross over occurs, but there is plenty of discussion, useful info interspersed with the odd tangent or too, and a move into other domestic alternatives like infrared panels.

If anyone wants a peruse its here viewtopic.php?t=68305&start=60

Regards Neil

[NewcastleFalcon]

It seems to me that various sources are using odd calculations to quote efficiency
The concept of 300% efficiency is not real. That would imply that a device outputs 3 times as much energy as it takes in. As we all know Energy cannot be created, nor destroyed, merely converted from one form to another.

Agreed, the heat pump as you pointed out before extracts the "free" heat energy from the air/ground/water etc but for for 1kW paid for energy, the householder gets 3kW or more usable energy in the home. Of course a lot of that usable energy for us would escape through single glazed sash windows in a house when built had a heating system of 8 coal fires. Still no problem with ventilation!

Regards Neil

[GiveMeABreak]

I find this chap interesting to listen to concerning heat pumps. My mate's new build has one that heats the floor and doesn't like them - they are nowhere as warm as traditional systems like oil (we are off the main gas grid here) so it's tanks of kerosene heating oil or LPG tanks.