Energy Matters Global and Domestic

[NewcastleFalcon]

So Tesla's Megapacks, Powerwalls, Solar roofs etc are becoming more well known. Tesla like to do a bit of high profile troubleshooting, and got the foot in the door of South Australia with just that. Tesla Megapacks are appearing in the UK at number of sites some having their moment in the sun on this very thread. The UK's battery storage co-ordinated network is in its embrionic stage, like when 2 gallon cans of petrol were carried around on the running boards of cars before petrol stations were built.

Bit more news here from South Australia

Tesla announces expansion of its biggest virtual power plant in Australia

Australia, and especially South Australia, has had a lot of power issues over the years as it retires aging infrastructure.

It also has a high penetration of renewable energy, which destabilized energy markets due to the inconsistency of the power supply.

Tesla first got involved by supplying its Powerpack in a large energy storage project owned by Neoen that became known as the “Tesla Big Battery.”

While in the region during the launch of the big battery, Tesla CEO Elon Musk was interviewed and presented with the significant hardship that Australia’s high electricity prices are putting on low-income families.

The unstable grid and high electricity costs result in some families having to decide between keeping the lights on or going hungry

Sounds familiar
Tesla see it as an opportunity.

A little thing called Autobidder Software associated with the Megapacks may well be the most significant part in turning the installations into moneymakers.

There's even a West sussex example
https://electrek.co/2021/09/16/tesla-un ... utobidder/

Regards Neil

[bobins]

To put that in perspective - and this is meant for info only and not in any way to detract or be a fan-boy - you'd need very roughly 1¼ of those containers to power the average home for a year, though those are very crude back of a scruffy fag packet calculations so are liable to be awry

[NewcastleFalcon]

Their monetisation is in storing energy, and discharging and selling energy many times. No need to have 1.25 of them being charged up on January 1st, and feeding it into a single house over the course of the next 365 days to provide the average house with its electricity requirements for the entire year. No shortage of investors for battery storage projects.

Massive energy storage capacity will develop, right now the scale of projects in the UK makes a very insignificant dent into the eventual requirement but its going to happen. Same thing with wind and solar, the capacity or over capacity as envisaged in Tony Seba's piece is way off in 2021, hence a few "September crises" are likely in the transition.

Regards Neil

[bobins]

Further to my calculations above, my very crude and undoubtedly sketchy maths reckon that very roughly that Tesla battery bank will keep the nearby houses* in the town of Burgess Hill theoretically** supplied with electricity for half a day.
Average yearly household consumption - 3,938 kWh
Assumed between 12500 - 13000 houses in Burgess Hill.
Tesla battery capacity at 'Contego' 68MWH

*- Houses only, not businesses, schools, etc.
** - Ignoring the peak power capability at 'Contego'.

I'm more than happy to be corrected as these are poor back-of-fag-packet calculations.

Burgess Hill - OS, fair use.

[NewcastleFalcon]

...and on any other half day throughout the course of the year beciuase once Burgess Hill have consumed 68mWh and their energy supplier/ the grid has paid the Contego site investors a huge premium for the emergency supply, the batteries at Contego will be filled up to capacity again, ready for the next supply of emergency energy at huge premium when Burgess Hill has another one of its outages.

Small beginnings, likely to be replicated at many more sites countrywide and a vital part of better energy management.

Regards Neil

[bobins]

My calculations are just to put the battery storage in perspective. What does 68MWH actually get you ? Enough to power London for a month, or the local McDonald's for 10 minutes, or somewhere in between ? If we move more towards wind and solar generation then we'll need more grid-scale storage, so it'll be important to know what that actually entails.

[white exec]

It's not just the technical accomplishment of the d.c. mega storage, and ability to feed back into the grid (a solid state version of pumped storage), but the coupling with it of the necessary "A.I." to calculate and execute the 'buying' and 'selling' of energy, as the second-by-second spot market price for electricity shifts.

This is simply (simply!) automated commodity dealing, and requires the hardware, software, and the wilingness of the energy generators to provide the necessary smart meters for the two-way flow of power. Looks like everyone gets some cake out of this one.

[NewcastleFalcon]

A scan through some of the comments on the Electrek Article about the West Sussex 68mWh battery storage facility.
The abbreviation FCAS gets many mentions...had to look it up...but it is a very lucrative business.

https://evergen.energy/6-things-to-lear ... s-trading/ (just noticed its an Australian link no matter still tells you what the abreviation is and a bit about it. )

The UK is currently going through a major energy price crunch with electricity prices breaching £475 (USD650) per MWH. Easy in the current situation to see a 68mwh storage facility making £10m pa in intraday arbitrage even before making anything on grid services etc.

So... Elon Musk is building batteries to suck all the power out of the grid and sell it back at higher prices?

It gets even better: at night wholesale electricity prices could dip to negative territory, meaning battery deployments may get paid for storing excessive electricity. Then, at peak time they get paid again, premium prices, for releasing electricity back to grid when it is at dire need of it. This is called grid stabilization.

It gets even better: they don't just make money by arbitrage on the wholesale energy market, they also get paid for the grid stabilization services they provide (eg: frequency response / balancing services). Play your cards right and get paid twice for the same energy!

Only one reason why battery storage facilities are being built, and will continue to be built. There's money in it

Regards Neil

[white exec]

There appear to be two separate issues here
1: storage of energy, to absorb excess generation and release when there is a lack;
2: stablisation of the grid frequency.

Anyone feeding into the grid has a responsibility to synchronise their a.c. output with mains frequency, and not do anything to disrupt it, or feed in corrupting waveform.

SFAIK, the grid frequency (50Hz in the UK) is controlled chiefly by the power generators controlling the rotational speed of their alternators (generators), or by frequency control of the inverted d.c. where this is how the installation operates. This has always been an operational requirement, and I'm unclear why anyone should be paid to control supply frequency. Paying them for the service of energy storage is another thing, and understandable, but frequency control should simply be a requirement of connection, surely?

[RichardW]

My calculations are just to put the battery storage in perspective. What does 68MWH actually get you ? Enough to power London for a month, or the local McDonald's for 10 minutes, or somewhere in between ? If we move more towards wind and solar generation then we'll need more grid-scale storage, so it'll be important to know what that actually entails.

UK average consumption is around 30-35 GW, so 68 MWh gives you a whole 7 seconds at 35GW. Average house is say 15 kWh / day so 68 MWh could supply 4,500 houses for a day - and there are c27 million houses in the UK. You need a LOT of these units to even scratch the surface of providing an appreciable grid scale back up, the cost is astronomical.

[Gibbo2286]

A nice discussion there chaps but what about the suggestion that household battery owners with solar panels can sell back to the grid, even the possibility of selling your EV car battery energy back in times when you don't need it?
I've already got the smart meter that they reckon can cater for it.

[NewcastleFalcon]

The cost is astronomical.

As was starting from zero, building a petrol and diesel infrastructure with exploration/drilling/production/transport/refining/distribution not to mention building a road network
As was starting from zero building the gas infrastructure
As is building nuclear power plants
As continues to be in 2021 the cumulative years of grid inefficiency and management by firing up large gas power stations.

Yes lots will be required, and at least its started. No one pretends 68mWh currently makes any difference apart from being a decent cash generator for the investors, and that's why they will happen.

It is never will be the intention of battery storage or any other storage medium, to provide power to provide every house in the country with their total annual electricity demand at any point in time. That's what the windfarms, the solar developments , solar panels on every south facing roof and yes the Nuke's are for.

A nice discussion there chaps but what about the suggestion that household battery owners with solar panels can sell back to the grid, even the possibility of selling your EV car battery energy back in times when you don't need it? I've already got the smart meter that they reckon can cater for it.

Vehicles to grid (and grid to vehicles) and vehicles to home, vehicles to local distribution networks, home generation to local distribution networks will also play a part. Also the increasing number of people with a home battery storage facility building into Virtual Power pLants with thousands of members and a nice bit of autobidder software to maximise and take any hassle out of selling and storing. Yes many a mickle makes a muckle.

Not a very popular term but a smart grid/smart meters/smart chargers with energy storage is so much better and more efficient as it builds, than the peaker plants burning gas in 2021.

Yes lots will be required, and at least its started. No one pretends 68mWh currently makes any difference apart from being a decent cash generator for the investors.

Regards Neil

[mickthemaverick]

Here's a revolutionary idea!!
Man has existed on earth for 315,000+ years (https://www.activewild.com/when-did-hum ... -on-earth/)
And only had electricity for 150 ish years. Get rid of electricity and that would result in the loss of the internet, civilisation as we know it and the vast majority of things that are ruining the planet!! If they managed for 314850 years without it, it can't be impossible.!! Grow and eat your own food and count clouds to pass the time!!

[NewcastleFalcon]

Here's a revolutionary idea!!
Man has existed on earth for 315,000+ years (https://www.activewild.com/when-did-hum ... -on-earth/)
And only had electricity for 150 ish years. Get rid of electricity and that would result in the loss of the internet, civilisation as we know it and the vast majority of things that are ruining the planet!! If they managed for 314850 years without it, it can't be impossible.!! Grow and eat your own food and count clouds to pass the time!!

You need to have a walk up to Cop 26 and heckle the speakers Mick

Regards Neil

[NewcastleFalcon]

Out of date, crikey its an article from 26th June 2018 and its from Australia, but a bit of insight into these big battery things for those who want a coffee-table read,

How much money did Tesla big battery make over summer?
(that's summer down under of course Christmas day barbies down the beach and all that)



Regards Neil