Electric Cars:what's available?

[Skull]

I went for a peek at the VW prices but the fact you have to give them your details to download a price put me off

Agree though that most car websites are a navigation nightmare which is why I normally just order a arty brochure that doesn't tell you much about the car basics

MG is my favourite so far just too big for my needs

[NewcastleFalcon]

First on the road spot yesterday of a demonstrator Vauxhall Corsa-e in Blue.

So here is the fully charged take on it from a couiple of weeks ago. Very interesting and the most interesting bit Robert's spot on analysis about the price from 10.30 onwards totally worth a listen and couldnt agree with him more,
and his conclusion like mine.

not a word for word quote but the gist.

"... This car could today in 2020 cost less than the combustion engine model.....but just think for a minute about the economics of running a very big company like PSA...99% of it is to make combustion cars....but if you are going to sell this car (the e-corsa) for the same price as the combustion car, who is going to buy the 100's of thousands of combustion cars they make.

They are making this car more expensive than it needs to be to hold back sales."

and I would add.....they are not alone.

REgards Neil

[bobins]

Simple economics in action. Volume car manufacturers are in business to make money, not save the planet.

[Mandrake]

Has Nissan finally pulled finger and made a clean sheet of paper EV that isn't based on Leaf heritage ?

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/car ... range.html

I wouldn't buy one (as I don't like the form factor) but for those that want that kind of car there is quite a bit to like about it, including the 310 mile range of the high end model, optional 4 wheel drive and tow rating. Expensive though - about the same as Tesla Model 3.

[myglaren]

Yet another ugly heap.

[NewcastleFalcon]

Well seeing as I was side by side with this rather expensive looking beast I thought I would see the sort of price you would have to pay for the pleasure of having use of the Jaguar I-pace. The days of handing over the full purchase price, and owning a new vehicle are rapidly disappearing.

Start off here and see what you come up with. Thing is if you are even considering a car in that price bracket then really you are in the buying what you fancy category, and £100/month up or down isnt going to make that much difference.

https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i ... index.html

Jaguar I-Pace EV 400 All Wheel Drive

REgards Neil

[bobins]

Having looked at their PCP offer:
https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i ... -hire.html
There's absolutely nothing about it that appeals to me. High initial cost, high monthly rental charge, high excess mileage charge, only 8000 miles p/a allowance. Perhaps I've got more sense than money

[Mandrake]

Clearly not a car for the masses

[NewcastleFalcon]

The Renault Zoe is available on a subscription service from "Onto" formerly EVeze.

Everything is thrown in “the car, insurance, breakdown cover, maintenance and even the electricity to charge it.”

and according to cleantechnica £339/month. with no long term lease just hand it back at any time. Yes that is for the ZE40 Model.

The ZE50's are more expensive as shown in susbequent posts

"“Onto’s addition of the New ZOEs follow the business’s ethos of making switching to an EV as straightforward as possible. All feature the 50KW DC rapid charge option, which allows 90 miles of charge to be restored in only 30 minutes, and offer a highly usable range of up to 245 miles (WLTP). Both versions are powered by the new, more powerful R135 motor that is twinned to a 52kWh battery.”



Regards Neil

[NewcastleFalcon]

Subscription services for use of a vehicle rather than ownership may well be a developing "thing".

You get 1000 a month miles, pay an excess charge if you go over 1000, but do less and it rolls over to the next month.

£399 a month for a BMW I3 (2019). The video is before Onto superceded EVezy

Yes this is not the bargain basement electric thread.....



REgards Neil

[NewcastleFalcon]

Just looking at the Onto website today.

These are the models and prices they are quoting 25/07/2020, for their subscription service

These are the models and prices they are quoting 25/07/2020, for their subscription service

"All the benefits of car ownership with none of the hassle
With a minimum period of one month and no deposit, enjoy the benefits of an electric car without the long-term commitment. If your circumstances change or you want something new - swap your car at any time!

Throughout 1000 miles/month allowance

£999/month Tesla Model 3 Performance (329 Miles Range (wait list full))
£999/month Tesla Model 3 LR (348 Miles Range (est delivery 12 weeks))
£799/month Tesla Model 3 SR+ (258 miles Range (est Delivery 12 Weeks))
£469/month BMW I3 120 Ah (193 Miles Range (est delivery 12 weeks))
£449/month Nissan Leaf Acenta (168 miles range (wait list full))
£419/month Hyundai Ioniq (174 mile Range (wait list full))
£419/month Renault Zoe ZE50 GT Line R135 (238 miles range (est delivery 4 weeks))
£389/month Renault Zoe ZE50 Iconic R135 (239 Miles range (est delivery 4 weeks))
£339/month Renault Zoe ZE40 R110 (186 miles range (fully booked))

REgards Neil

[NewcastleFalcon]

So, when you are trying to sell something sell the benefits, overcome the objections.....

Here's Peugeot's 2020 "overcome the objections" tool

www.peugeot.co.uk

Regards Neil

[c.morewood]

Thanks to NewcastleFalcon for pointing me in the direction of this thread.
I bought a Model 3 LR dual motor AWD just before lockdown in March and so far have done just over 5000 miles in it.
I must say that it is the most comfortable car I have driven for long jouneys. I'm 59 and have all the usual aches and pains, plus a few self induced ones after breaking a few bones. Driving the Xania Bournemouth to Aberdeen several times a year always resulted in getting out of the car and feeling all the aches from having driven without cruise control for 11 or so hours.
The model 3, although nothing like as soft a ride, but with the advantage of "autopilot" cruise control and really comfy seats meant that the 10 hour trip to High Wycombe and back was a breeze with no aches or pains. being able to keep all my limbs mobile throughought the trip. Combined with the "Rocketship on rails" acceleration and cornering with the 4WD make it really predictable and enjoyable
I thought I'd share my costs for the 5500 miles. this time last year buying an electric car consisted of a Smartfor2 for short journeys and keeping W for the long runs.
Then I did some research and found that an interest free loan was availale up to £35k from the Scottish Government £487 a month.
It was then I started researching EV's which could handle long runs as I knew we would be doing Kemnay to HW regularly with a grandchild on the way.
The Eniro was just coming on the market and was unproven, the Ipace didn't have great reviews. the ModelS and X were too expensive and I had a friend raving about the model 3 he'd just leased.
The model 3 cost less than 4p a mile to run, no maintenance apart from tyres and brake fluid. (W cost me 25p a mile last year, doing all the maintenance myself) and had a really good warranty ( battery 8 yrs 120k miles to 70%) rest 4 yrs 50k miles.
I started watching YouTube videos boith the good and the bad. I especially wanted to see the bad.. but there really weren't any. The good far outweighed the bad.
So i booked a test drive in March, primarily to see if my wife, who always used to complain about struggling getting out of the Xantias, would be happy about the height of the M3. surprise, surprise when she said the height was fine.I didn't understand this but then I knew I had her blessing to proceed.
I placed the order on the 10th February, the car was made on the 17th and I took delivery on the 17th March from Edinburgh, the nearest service center. I followed it most of the way, finding out its VIN about 2 weeks after the order and with that I was able to track the ship it was on from San Francisco to Zeebrugge and the to Southampton. The ordering process was easy, £100 deposit and wait. although I didn't realise that you had to click ON the referral code to get the free supercharger miles worth about £100 (referral available if you need one) I thought there would be a place in the order where you could type the code in.. there isn't.
So to the figures:
I have spent almost £20k so far on deposit, loan repayments, accessories, insurance, AA and superchargers.
This equates to a per mile cost of £4.20 at this point in time. this comes down fairly rapidly the more miles I do.
Taking everything out apart from the charging costs it works out at .0272p per mile. (yes the zero is in the correct place)
This is possible due to the fact that I have solar PV and batteries plus in Aberdeenshire most of the charging is free at the moment. I expect his to reach about 3p per mile as the freee chargers eventually start to charge.
This summer I have been able to charge from solar for about 70% of the time and use the Chargeplacescotland chargers about 28% usually on cloudy days. the remaining 2% is supercharger which costs abuth 24pkWh meaning Kemnay to High Wycombe return 1040 miles is about £37. (if youre planning a trip to Scotland, most of the charging is still free. Its worth paying for a £20 Chargeplacescotland card and ther are lots of chargers around)

Things will change in the winter with the car not having as good a range. In the summer (15c+) I can pretty much count on 260 miles 2 up on a motorway trip without rain. Kemnay to Tebay or Tebay to High Wycombe.
In the rain the range drops significantly if you're trying to maximise 200-240 depending on how heavy/frequently the rain is.
In the winter the range drops away to 220 ish on a 5C dry day and obviously less as it gets colder or with precipitation. Also in winter the charging will change with me using more of the free charging as long as it lasts and I have a really good electricity tariff Agile from Octopus energy which means I can charge at about 5p/kWh during the winter. (again referral available if required £50 credit to switch and no tie in period the best provider I have ever been with)
As we have an air source heat pump,(also interest free loan) we are all electric and the year is really divided up into summer and winter using the most of the sun with the solar PV and thermal to minimise electrical cost.
We are now using about 5600Kw a year which is costing us about £700 (and about £80 for gas cooking) as far as I can project.
Last time we used that amount in a year was 2016 when we had 2 teenagers at home it cost us then £1180.
That does not take into account the Octopus referrals and the RHI and income from the PV.

I hope this is informative and may help people making the choice to go green.
Chris

[Mandrake]

Hi Chris,

Welcome to the fold, although it looks like you've pole vaulted right over the top of me in a single bound with the Tesla and solar panels.

You might have seen I've recently gone from the Peugeot Ion to a 2016 30kWh Leaf - a modest car compared to a Model 3 or even the e-Niro but a nice step up for me. I really like the car, a lot more than I expected to even though I'm an experienced EV driver by now and sort of knew what to expect... it's super smooth and quiet compared to the Ion, although at 80kW / 107HP it doesn't keep up with the Xantia above 50mph let alone a Tesla.... nippy up to about 50mph then fairly flat but adequate above that. But I didn't buy it to be a speed demon.

Interesting to see your comments on the comfort of the Model 3 seats - the seats have gone through several iterations in the Model 3 since launch in 2017, and I think they have improved quite a bit in that time. They do look comfortable. I've always been worried about the "firm" ride people report in the Model 3 so it's good to hear that the seats can make up for that to some degree.

The drivers seat is the one thing that has disappointed me a bit in the Leaf - I don't find it very comfortable and I'm having to mess around with cushions/covers to try to find something to make it a bit more comfortable for me....and I haven't hit on the right mix yet. The full leather electric seats in the Xantia are much more comfortable and adjustable.

The ride on the Leaf is soft but has very limited travel, probably like a lot of modern cars and I suspect the Tesla is similar. Small bumps are taken very well (better than the Xantia) with good isolation and an overall "cushioned" feeling, however larger bumps hit hard and cause the car to pitch and kick due to inadequate suspension travel. The Xantia is slightly harsher on the very small bumps as Hydractive 2 tends to be, but swallows up the larger bumps that cause the Leaf to pitch as if they weren't even there, and the Xantia has that super stable unruffled feeling over undulating roads that I haven't felt from any conventionally sprung car to date.

Although I can't afford either until they get much older, I think for me beyond the Leaf my ideal EV would be a toss up between the Model 3 and the Kia e-Niro. Strange to put them in the same sentence on first glance but they share a lot in common especially range.

I like the Model 3 a lot but I do have some reservations about it. The Sedan boot is the main complaint I have with it - and I see this has been addressed by the Model Y which is back to a hatchback again like the Model S and X. Really odd choice to go Sedan IMHO, (probably due to the glass roof design) and while it's quite deep and roomy it's just not as versatile as a hatchback.

I also have a love hate relationship with the centre console on the Model 3 - the functionality it provides is absolutely outstanding and class leading, but..... I find the rest of the controls (or lack of them) too minimalist for my tastes, including the lack of heads up display. Would it stop me buying one ? No, but I like my buttons and switches and other tactile controls in addition to a top notch central touch screen. The Model S had both the centre console and a normal heads up display with controls, and I think I prefer that arrangement.

Lack of a heat pump in the Model 3 is a little disappointing - I see that they've included a heat pump in the Model Y for the first time.

How do you find the door handles on the outside and the door release button on the inside ? Do you have to explain to every passenger how to get in and out of the car properly ?

A major selling point for Tesla's apart from their looks and crazy performance is the supercharging network - that alone can tip the balance from another model of EV. The public charging network isn't too bad in Scotland (I'm in the central belt in Lanarkshire) but in England it's pants with a mishmash of networks.... so doing long distance journeys without access to the supercharger network would not be fun at the moment even in a longer range EV.

In regards to "Going green", while I'm sure many people buy EV's with that intention, it's also OK to just like the driving experience of an EV in its own right and buy one because of that. It's one of those things that until you've lived with an EV for a while you don't "get it", and a lot of drivers who have never spent time living with an EV have a strange view of what driving an EV might be like, as if it was somehow like driving an oversized golf cart.

There is something very enjoyable and relaxing about driving EV's - especially those with higher performance. They can still be fun without the "noise and fuss" of a combustion engine, but fun in a different way. It's also OK to like both.

I still enjoy driving the Xantia V6 as well and enjoy going back and forth between the Xantia and the Leaf - they both have their strengths and weaknesses and complement each other well. But when it comes to day-to-day getting to work and back the Leaf is the clear winner as it's just so smooth, easy and fuss free to drive especially in stop start traffic, and so cheap to run. It's nice to be able to sit in the car with the A/C running while waiting for SWMBO without leaving an engine running the whole time... preheating/cooling via the app is great etc... and I don't miss going to petrol stations!

Although I haven't owned the Leaf through an icy winter yet I am looking forward to timed, plugged in preheating to melt the ice for me automatically in the morning - although I did use the heater in the Ion to melt the ice it was a manual process of turning the car on and locking the car with the spare key while the heater ran... proper preheating is fuss free.

I think you might be the first Tesla owner on frenchcarforum ?

Interesting your comment on the effect of very wet roads on the range - I see quite a big drop in efficiency (and therefore range) on the Leaf when there is standing water on the road and heavy rain - much more than I remember for the Peugeot Ion, however that may be because the Leaf has much wider 215/50/17 tyres vs 145/65/15 and 175/55/15 on the Ion. Who knew that pumping water off the road used so much energy.

[c.morewood]

Thanks for the welcome. Its a very different drive to the ICE cars. The lack of changing gear makes it so smooth in acceleration. One thing I really enjoy is the single pedal driving. the regen is so good that it will bring the car to a stop with no brake input so that the only time you have to use the brake is when you have misjudged the regen or someone pulls out infront of you (except when you can't regen at 100% battery).
The door handles, though quirky, work well and when you've used them once or twice, it stops being strange. the internal ones I've marked with dayglo stickers, despite this some people still manage to find the (well hidden) emergency door release.
The boot issue hasn't really mattered to me as I still have the Xantia and she gets used for anything large. I've found no issues with 3 large suitcases so far.. I've got another trip to HW at the end of the month and it'll be the first trip 4 up so we'll see how that goes. Had I not been worried that Scotgov were going to pull the plug on the interest free loan I might have waited the year or two for the MY as it would be more practical for me, dogs grandchild etc. but I'm glad I went for the M3.
You my be correct about they tyres and rain on the M3 235 wide tyres certainly will neeed to shift a lot of water. It started raining on our Trip South of Glasgow, I was planning on stoppig at either Gretna or Tebay but I saw the graph drop so much in the rain I stopped at Abington i certainly wouldn't have made it to Tebay and Gretna started to get marginal.
The higher performance/acceleration is not something I particularly enjoy. I have it set to chill mode which is the lowest and slowest acceleration but even so its still pretty nippy. We took her to Lochinver a few weeks ago and driving the roads to Ullapool remnded me of riding the bike, the K100. Brake (regen) into the corner and a sqirt of power out. The only real difference was that you couldn't progress in traffic as you could on a bike.
The cameras and autopilot have saved me a couple of times where unsighted cars have pulled out in front or me and the car has initiated the braking half to one second before I would have. but it does occasionally have the phantom braking issue, which I think Ive 90% sorted a it appears to be down to a specific set of circumstances for me anyway (Truck in the inside lane, I've just overtaken in the outside lane and pulling back in to the middle lane abeam the truck especially a curtainside or a trailer with tiedowns moving in the wind. the flapping seems to register for a secon as the truck pulling out as I'm pulling in and voila you have a 10 mph deceleration until the car realises its ok)
There's lots of other things I could mention like the amazing sound system, the ease of going forward to reverse, the constant updates about every 2 weeks, the lack of depreciation ( about 5% according to most sites and even gaining $3000 according to this https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/13/te ... karma/amp/)
and the fact that I feel good about having generated my own electricity for the journey ( about 50% of the time).
Its not really the PV thats the important thing its the batteries. If you have 10 or 11 kw of bttery storage you can run a house on the Octopus Agile tarriff ( you really should look that up) it averaged 10p kWh over a day but outside 1630 -1930 I have seen prices of -5p to 9p kWh yes! they pay you on windy days or nights to use the electric. Most people are being charge 14-20p kWh. Imagine the savings over a year 15p down to 5p thats two thirds of your bill off, or about £400-500 a year if you're using 6-7000 kw a year.
I've got salt water batteries, great for the environment and you can't damage them by discharge. 10.8 kWh for £6000 although I picked them up when they were a bit cheaper and called Aquion.
It was a case of what I wanted to do after retirement and i wanted a house which would run itsself and i could guarantee it wasn't going to cost me a fortune after all the initial capital cost and a lot of that was aided by the aforementioned interest free loans from the Scottish goverment, its amazing whats out there and the help you can get.
Have you watched youtubes EVM? He started out with a couple of leafs or should that be leaves? before geting his M3 in April.