Dump Your Deezel

[van ordinaire]

Don't blame the engines blame the fuel they use - when there are alternatives available.

That may well be the reason for reducing emission targets (although I suspect it's vote catching AND a lot cheaper/easier than addressing the real problems) but the result was cheating.

When I suggested history couldn't be reversed, I meant the damage was done, the cars are out there & cannot be made compliant irreversibly.

[Gibbo2286]

Interesting.

https://www.autotorque.news/latest-ne ... %20reports

[Peter.N.]

I'm not surprised. When I was looking for a C5 the vast majority were diesel, I only found one or possibly two petrol ones out of about 50 I researched and no one seemed to want to buy them.

Peter

[NewcastleFalcon]

Oxford planning to introduce a city centre zero emission zone this year.

Oxford set to introduce city-centre Zero Emission Zone in 2020
Drivers of non-electric cars will be required to pay £10 per day to enter the heart of Oxford under new plans

Vehicles that meet the Government’s current Plug-in Car Grant criteria – electric cars, hydrogen fuel cell cars and plug-in hybrids capable of at least 70 miles of zero-emissions running – would be exempt from the charges.

Oh dear those non-plug in hybrids which charge the battery up on petrol, look like they are going to have to fork out the £10 a day

Regards Neil

[white exec]

Vehicles that meet the Government’s current Plug-in Car Grant criteria – electric cars, hydrogen fuel cell cars and plug-in hybrids capable of at least 70 miles of zero-emissions running – would be exempt from the charges.

Finally, the penny has started to drop!

[van ordinaire]

Yes, local authorities everywhere have seen there's easy money to be made - 'til their town dies!

[NewcastleFalcon]

...and on the non-plug in hybrid front, Norway aren’t that keen on Lexus marketing

Norwegian Government asserts Lexus self-charging hybrid is a lie

Regards Neil

[ekjdm14]

I've not weighed in on this thread before that I recall, nor am i likely to again but my opinion on the "zero emissions" electric cars is that they're simply shifting the emissions to where the majority of us can't see them. Low/zero emission rules are nothing more than a money-spinner (if they were serious about air quality, you wouldn't be able to buy your way in with a fossil-fuelled car at all) and when one considers the amount of fossil fuel burned in jet engines, i feel that private cars are not as huge a factor as they make out.

Anyway, come whenever they do try to ban the ICE I'll be driving Black to every protest/rally etc going, running on 100% vegetable oil of course! (Now that's probably a lower carbon footprint than any new electric car, grow the fuel from the earth, release oxygen as a by product & then when it comes time to burn it, I can offset the carbon emissions by the amount of pollution that'd be caused by my scrapping the thing & having a nice shiny new car built!)

OK I'll shut up and crawl back into my shell now!

[NewcastleFalcon]

Ban on new petrol and diesel cars brought forward to 2035 as UN talks launched

Despite the bleating of the automotive industry, even 2035 isn't that ambitious. Surely notice has been given all around the world that further development of the internal combustion engine burning fossil fuels is a waste of time for the car makers. Yet still they hang on both with full ICE, and an avalanche of in order of uselessness of self-driving hybrids, mild hybrids, plug in hybrids with ranges of 20-30 miles, and hybrids with a small range extender ICE.

Meanwhile over in the EU who like to bleat on about state aid, PSA have nicely stitched up the building of 2 battery gigafactories with the help of a boatload 1.3 Billion Euros of let's call it "European State Aid" to the direct benefit of PSA/FCA, the direct benefit of France and Germany which surprise surprise is where the factories are to be built. Nice for the other 25 of the 27.(sarcasm emoticon required)

The UK automotive industry in its current state consists of an outpost for companies who's loyalties lie elsewhere. Some major partnerships are going to have to be courted, like with Nissan in the the early 80's.
Nissan have slipped back, but still remain well placed to make and sell a range of electric vehicles in the UK if they would only wake up. How many models of electric car do Nissan produce after nearly 10 years?....one the Leaf. The development and the energy is coming from China and South Korea currently, and much as we would all want our own indigenous transport companies to take a lead, I cant see any current player in the UK doing that.

A clear signal that the UK market is moving faster towards dumping deezel and petrol and the vacuum waiting to be filled with demand for electric vehicles creates the demand required for Gigafactory 1 2 3 and more to be viable in the UK. You have to face it should it happen its going to be with Chinese or South Korean partners. Sooner the negotiations start followed by action the better. The Chinese model of having to partner 50% with a Chinese Company has certainly involved virtually all of the major world carmakers in joint ventures in that country. Of course there is also TESLA but despite some environmental objections, they have landed in Germany not exactly shy of a bit of state aid.

My view is its time, and has been for the past 100 years of the automobile, to get electrification done and just get on with it.

REgards Neil

[Mandrake]

While Nissan still have a plant in the UK, they are floundering at the moment due to being in corporate disarray, and if you believe the rumours, Carlos Ghosn was stitched up by the Nissan board with collusion from the Japanese government to prevent the merger with the largely French government controlled Renault... This has left them in a real mess with no real direction or strategy, so I wouldn't count on Nissan doing anything to save "local" car manufacturing in the UK.

There was a news story a couple of days ago saying that if we do end up with tariffs importing European cars, (which is still a real possibility, despite what Boris says) Nissan will take advantage of that by pumping more cars out at Sunderland for sale on the UK market - giving them an advantage over rivals without manufacturing in the UK, within the UK market. So they would effectively profit from a failure of us to get a free trade deal...

China are the biggest player in the world for BEV's at the moment both production and consumption, however only a small part of what is produced in China gets sold anywhere else in the world - they're mainly focused on satisfying their domestic market.

The South Koreans are doing well, but have battery supply issues as Kia and Hyundai get all their batteries from LG Chem and SK Innovation - both companies which have many other customers and can't provide even a fraction of the batteries that Kia and Hyundai could potentially sell in cars.

Both the e-Niro and Kona are crackers of BEV's that are in high demand despite their long waiting lists and relatively high price, but they just can't produce enough due to lack of in house battery manufacturing.

PSA have been very clever to get the EU government to basically pay for part of their Gigafactory for them, but in a way, good on them. Part of the reason for switching to BEV's is for various governments to meet their target emissions figures, and that can only be done by disrupting the long entrenched ICE supply chain, at the expense of those companies currently making ICE vehicles.

We often criticise legacy car makers for dragging their heels on BEV's and being slow to compete with the likes of Tesla, but I think there is a difference between competing with other BEV manufacturers to keep market share, and having BEV production basically forced down on you by the governments setting ever smaller emissions targets.

In the case of competing with someone like Tesla, if you can't keep up and adapt, you may go out of business, fine, that's what can happen in a capitalist market - look how many car makers have already disappeared in the last 50 years who couldn't keep up. I don't expect any government bail out of companies that just can't compete with other companies.

However in the situation where the government is (more or less) forcing BEV manufacturing on legacy makers using regulatory tools, in the name of meeting their own governmental emissions targets, I think a contribution from the government to help Kickstart the migration to BEV manufacturing by helping with producing a battery plant actually makes sense, and helps establish important future infrastructure for those countries. The alternative is that your in-country car Marques eventually either go out of business or are severely disadvantaged.

So I'm actually OK with the government helping towards those Gigafactories. The government wants to meet aggressive emissions targets ? They can help pay for the changes necessary to implement it without bankrupting the existing car manufacturers.

[Gibbo2286]

I think if the EU decides to 'punish us' with tariffs we should stop all of our public services from buying their vehicles.

I'm sure Toyota, Nissan and Honda would be delighted to be able to replace the Mercedes, Renault, BMW, SEAT, FIAT, etc. NHS ambulances, police cars, postal vans, etc. that currently fill our streets.

Maybe we could also reincarnate the LDV company in Birmingham who were forced to close down because Mr (Now Lord) Mandelson refused them a £5 million loan for a management buy out (EU rules) when TATA walked away., they, LDV were well on the way to producing an electric van when it all went belly up.

LDV name is still in use by a new Chinese owner selling vans here as Maxus.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... jaxhist=0

[NewcastleFalcon]

Have a punt Simon, who do you think will be partners in the first battery gigafactory to be built in the UK? .

This is the UK Car Industry (excluding the small ones) Its from Wiki cant guarantee its 100% accurate.

Aston Martin Lagonda Gaydon /South Wales (head officially in the sand until 2025)
Bentley Motors(VW) Crewe
PSA Vauxhall Ellesmere Port Luton
Honda Swindon (disappearing shortly)
Jaguar Land Rover (Tata Motors) Castle Bromwich, Halewood, Solihull, South Wales
LEVC (Geely China) Coventry
MG Motor SAIC Motor Longbridge
Mini (BMW) Plant Oxford
Rolls-Royce Motor Cars(BMW) Goodwood
Nissan UK Sunderland
Toyota Manufacturing UK Burnaston

Difficult to pick one out of that list to lead the way, maybe one of the big Chinese backed companies like SAIC/Geely motor with a small foothold currently.

REgards Neil

[mickthemaverick]

After reading the last few posts it occured to me that we may be missing a viable solution which I have not seen suggested elsewhere. In my chequered history I have owned and run a hybrid, the Prius, and owned and run 2 veggie oil powered vehicles, a Shogun and a Delica. The only two significant issues I had with veggie oil were cold weather and corrosiveness to rubber. The cold weather was overcome by an electric preheater in the tank with an inline hot water radiator (actually an oil cooler working in reverse) taking over once the engines were warm. The rubber corrosion is only a problem if you are daft enough (as I was!) to allow a leak in the fuel system to remain long enough to drip on the suspension rubber parts and wreck it completely.
So no real issue with veggie oil as a fuel in a well maintained diesel assuming the high pressure fuel pump is compatible. Now add the regenerative benefits of a hybrid and you will make your oil go further. I returned 28mpg in both my 2.8l mitsubishis which equated to 56mpg in terms of cost, veggie being half the price of diesel at the time. So given that hybridisation would improve the efficiency it could well be another way to go cleaner! Just saying....

[Mandrake]

Just wondering how burning vegetable oil would be "clean" ? You're still burning hydrocarbons and emitting the byproducts into the atmosphere. Not much different from Diesel, just the source is different.

[mickthemaverick]

Good point Simon, I feel that the Carbon emissions by the engine are offset by the carbon absorbed by the plants growing to produce the oil. It is clear that veggie oil does release more than diesel but I believe the offset makes up for that. However veggie oil produces less soot and less NOx emissions so it is cleaner in that way. This site gives evidence to those statements:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/201 ... /index.htm