Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

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xantos
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by xantos »

And another 700km go by... Just had a minor so far. One time the car just didn't go as it should it was like a snail. I thought "What the f*** now!" and a quick diagnosis showed the pipe that goes to the intercooler popped off #-o . Sorted quickly and again it goes like a scalded cat! Yipi!

Yesterday I reconnected the LPG system. For a minute it was running a little rough and I thought I might need to recalibrate the system but then it settled down. It seems the the LPG system remembered its settings, although it was disconnected for four months. My wallet is smiling because the TCT engine is a heavy drinker :twisted:

Oil consumption so far is zero. Before it was drinking about a liter of oil per 1000km...

I also discovered that the front electrovalve (don't know if back also) is leaking internally in soft mode, so that needs sorting. It's leaking about half a deciliter per minute so quite heavy I recon... Had the valve disassembled in the past and I think that I might have over-lengthen the spring (like Mandrake is suggesting).

I also put a clear silicone pipe to the LHM reservoir connection for observing air intake, but it's hard to see if the bubbles are tiny, because the flow of LHM is very fast. Although I think I saw a few that were visible in 5 minutes... In the reservoir there are still millions of tiny bubbles when the car is put on low. Especially if the pressure release bolt is unscrewed they tend to multiply by 10...

Well the fun never stops... \:D/
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
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jgra1
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by jgra1 »

nice post Xantos :) good setup there too! ramp - and a stove!! much better than my gas fire and rough stable floor!

how hard was the rack pinion rebuild? I tried once and I found it quite tricky, then brought a rebuilt pinion from Pleiades ..

I was in Ljublina (spelling) 2 weeks ago.. nice city :) stayed in the 'jail' - a hostel.. and then grabbed a nice train to Zagreb..

good luck with it

John
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Mandrake
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by Mandrake »

xantos wrote: I also discovered that the front electrovalve (don't know if back also) is leaking internally in soft mode, so that needs sorting. It's leaking about half a deciliter per minute so quite heavy I recon... Had the valve disassembled in the past and I think that I might have over-lengthen the spring (like Mandrake is suggesting).
Half a decilitre - umm, 50mL you mean ? :lol:

Yes this amount of leakage is a problem, and may be enough to cause the hard/soft switching to malfunction intermittently. If there is always significant leakage on the overflow port the pressure to the control block shuttle valve won't be as high as it should be when in the "soft" mode, so it may tend to stick intermittently in the hard mode.

It might not even be related to the spring tension - on my last Xantia I tried tweaking the springs and while it helped with the rear one the front one still kept leaking. In that case the cause was visible pitting of the needle valve/seat in the top part of the electrovalve.
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
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xantos
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by xantos »

jgra1 wrote: how hard was the rack pinion rebuild? I tried once and I found it quite tricky, then brought a rebuilt pinion from Pleiades ..
Easy thingy... The hardest thing in my opinion is getting the steering rack out of the car. Well since the engine was out it was not difficult 8-)
jgra1 wrote: I was in Ljublina (spelling) 2 weeks ago.. nice city :) stayed in the 'jail' - a hostel.. and then grabbed a nice train to Zagreb..
Ljubljana. Yes they transformed an old prison into a hostel. It's called The (prison) Cell. Why didn't you give me a call since you were in Slovenia? :-D
Mandrake wrote: Half a decilitre - umm, 50mL you mean ? :lol:
Yes 50mL (0,05L). Keep forgetting to change units... #-o
Mandrake wrote: It might not even be related to the spring tension - on my last Xantia I tried tweaking the springs and while it helped with the rear one the front one still kept leaking. In that case the cause was visible pitting of the needle valve/seat in the top part of the electrovalve.
I remember a post of yours that over-lengthening the spring might also be a problem. When I had the electrovalve apart it looked OK. Not any visible damage on the needle valve or seat (btw. I'm having some difficulties understanding what pitting means... :oops: )
Luckily I took the electrovalves from a V6 Activa that was about to be scraped so I have something to play with...
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
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Mandrake
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by Mandrake »

By pitting I just mean surface imperfections (dents, scratches etc) in the surface of the taper on the needle or seat that prevents it sealing no matter how much spring tension there is on it.

Why it can happen I don't know, it was easily visible under a small magnifying glass on the one I had problems with - after trying tweaking the spring I eventually had to replace it. Funny thing is the replacement one (also second hand) had a dry soldered joint in the coil (which is not possible to fix as its deep inside the plastic moulding) also making it intermittent/unreliable, so I swapped the coil sleeve from one valve to the other to make one good electrovalve out of the two!
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
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1978 CX 2400
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xantos
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by xantos »

Nothing done regarding electrovalves but...

Yesterday I swapped LHM with hydrorincage (hydraulic cleaner). Also connected silicone pipes for bubble diagnostics. Figured out that the "mysterious o-ring" on the LHM reservoir is indeed the cause for air intake. Improvised a bit with a piece of pipe and ton of silicone. It works! Bubble intake down dramatically! Here my temporary solution:
Image

Looking and the silicone pipe on the return I noticed that there is an avalanche of bubbles when the steering wheel is turned... Now where do they come from?! Everything is dry and I renewed the steering pinion valve. Still some nuggets to be cracked...
Image

Anyway the ride has improved a lot and it rises much quicker. The front suspension is good, back is a bit bouncy. I think it sits just a bit to low at the back... Hopefully I make 3000km on hydrorincage without any leaks. That would be a record, right? :wink:

Still didn't diagnose why STOP light comes out immediately after engine start. Maybe a broken fuse?
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
vborovic
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by vborovic »

xantos wrote:
jgra1 wrote: I was in Ljublina (spelling) 2 weeks ago.. nice city :) stayed in the 'jail' - a hostel.. and then grabbed a nice train to Zagreb..
Ljubljana. Yes they transformed an old prison into a hostel. It's called The (prison) Cell. Why didn't you give me a call since you were in Slovenia? :-D
Same question from me while you were in Croatia ... :D
lexi
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by lexi »

Hey guys, what makes you think that Citroen designed these systems perfect and bubble free in the first place?

It is a a mass produced system of components built down to a price, right?
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xantos
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by xantos »

Well quite a few users have claimed that they have no bubbles at all in the LHM reservoir...
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by Mandrake »

xantos wrote: Yesterday I swapped LHM with hydrorincage (hydraulic cleaner). Also connected silicone pipes for bubble diagnostics. Figured out that the "mysterious o-ring" on the LHM reservoir is indeed the cause for air intake. Improvised a bit with a piece of pipe and ton of silicone. It works! Bubble intake down dramatically!
Interesting - mine seems to be back to riding somewhat harshly most of the time for at least the last several months, but if I lift the suspension right up then back to normal the ride is much smoother for a while but then gets harsh again quite quickly - classic signs of air bubbles being drawn into the pump.

I've previously changed the joiner hose at each end (the V6 has a 50mm long "joiner" at each end with plastic spigots on the main pipe itself which go into the joiner) and while the one at the pump end is now a good fit I'm not so sure about the one at the tank end. :( The plastic spigot on the end of the hose and the one on the tank are not quite the same size (about half a millimetre different) so one size of joiner hose has difficulty sealing well on both.

I will have another look at the mysterious o-ring too - I can't see any reason why that plastic bung ever needs to come out again, so maybe just sealing around the bung with a bead of oil resistant glue is a good permanent fix ?
Looking and the silicone pipe on the return I noticed that there is an avalanche of bubbles when the steering wheel is turned... Now where do they come from?! Everything is dry and I renewed the steering pinion valve. Still some nuggets to be cracked...
Do you only see the bubble avalanche in the return pipe going INTO the tank, or do you also see a significant quantity of bubbles then passing through the pipe going TO the pump ? I've often speculated that the power steering system is one of the major sources of air bubble ingress in the return piping - it has the highest hydraulic flow of any of the return lines by far (3x greater flow than the pressure regulator in cut-out mode) so a tiny air leak on the return piping from the power steering back to the reservoir could potentially draw in a lot of air.

How to trace this and fix it I don't know.
Still didn't diagnose why STOP light comes out immediately after engine start. Maybe a broken fuse?
Do you mean the hydraulic pressure stop light goes out very quickly after start up ?

How long has the car sat before starting ? If it has sat overnight and the light goes out immediately that's suspicious, and maybe suggests a flat accumulator sphere.

But if it happens when the car has only been stopped for a short time its not necessarily an issue - when there is an air ingress problem to the pump it can take a few seconds to self prime and even then the pumping capacity of the pump is greatly diminished. (this type of pump can generate very little suction so even a small air leak will reduce cc delivery per revolution a lot)

If you fix an air leak on the pump inlet line (which includes the mysterious o-ring) it won't lose its prime and the pressure will be topped up much quicker as the pumping capacity of the pump will be much better.

So it's quite normal for the light to go out a lot quicker if you've fixed a significant air leak. (Immediately is still suspicious though...)
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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jgra1
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by jgra1 »

Same question from me while you were in Croatia ... :D

sorry both ! :)

next time.. ;)
hope rains have calmed a bit!
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xantos
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

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Mandrake wrote:Do you only see the bubble avalanche in the return pipe going INTO the tank, or do you also see a significant quantity of bubbles then passing through the pipe going TO the pump ? I've often speculated that the power steering system is one of the major sources of air bubble ingress in the return piping - it has the highest hydraulic flow of any of the return lines by far (3x greater flow than the pressure regulator in cut-out mode) so a tiny air leak on the return piping from the power steering back to the reservoir could potentially draw in a lot of air.

How to trace this and fix it I don't know.
I see bubbles going into the tank and also to the pump. I made "10min mode" quite some time ago and I don't see how so many bubbles can be sucked into the pump (especially with "10min mode" made)... If there is a draw of air from the power steering how come everything is bone dry? There must be a drop of LHM somewhere if it's leaking...
Mandrake wrote:Do you mean the hydraulic pressure stop light goes out very quickly after start up ?

How long has the car sat before starting ? If it has sat overnight and the light goes out immediately that's suspicious, and maybe suggests a flat accumulator sphere.

But if it happens when the car has only been stopped for a short time its not necessarily an issue - when there is an air ingress problem to the pump it can take a few seconds to self prime and even then the pumping capacity of the pump is greatly diminished. (this type of pump can generate very little suction so even a small air leak will reduce cc delivery per revolution a lot)

If you fix an air leak on the pump inlet line (which includes the mysterious o-ring) it won't lose its prime and the pressure will be topped up much quicker as the pumping capacity of the pump will be much better.

So it's quite normal for the light to go out a lot quicker if you've fixed a significant air leak. (Immediately is still suspicious though...)
After ignition the STOP light comes out immediately. Doesn't matter how long it sat. It's happening from the moment I reassembled the engine so maybe I've forgotten to connect something. Before the STOP light would be on until suspension settled. Now it comes off straight away although the suspension is not fully pressurized...
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by Hell Razor5543 »

The problem is that the LHM is thicker than air, so a pinhole leak wouldn't necessarily leak LHM, but will draw in air if the pipework was under a slight vacuum.
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by Mandrake »

xantos wrote: I see bubbles going into the tank and also to the pump. I made "10min mode" quite some time ago and I don't see how so many bubbles can be sucked into the pump (especially with "10min mode" made)... If there is a draw of air from the power steering how come everything is bone dry? There must be a drop of LHM somewhere if it's leaking...
Not necessarily. Oil has much greater surface tension than air.

Air will leak through tiny gaps that unpressurised oil will not leak out of due to surface tension.

Also depending on the physical geometry of the leak - especially at a joint, you can end up with a "venturi vacuum pump".

Remember the "vacuum pump" from secondary school science class which is just a plastic hose with a syringe needle inserted into it pointing "downstream" ? One end is connected to a cold water tap and the other end hangs open in the sink. When the tap is turned on and water flows out the end a vacuum is created at the needle port and air is sucked into the water flow.

No water comes back out the needle port with the tap either on or off as the hose is never pressurised and when the water is flowing its moving away from the opening of the needle... The exact same thing can happen here with a return line as it has high flow but no pressure.
After ignition the STOP light comes out immediately. Doesn't matter how long it sat. It's happening from the moment I reassembled the engine so maybe I've forgotten to connect something. Before the STOP light would be on until suspension settled. Now it comes off straight away although the suspension is not fully pressurized...
You might have left the wire off the pressure switch on the pressure distribution block then. :( (It's sometimes referred to as the priority valve) It's down behind the back of the engine on the LHM tank side of the car - and will be a junction with a number of hydraulic pipes going into it with an electrical connector on one end. The contacts close to turn on the light if the pressure from the regulator is below about 80-100 bars.

By the way not all the ports on the priority valve are directly connected to each other - so if there's any possibility that the pipes might be mixed up you need to check that too, as it could possibly cause your issue.
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1978 CX 2400
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine

Unread post by xantos »

Right right right! Making things a lot clearer!

Just remembered that I've replaced the rubber bit of pipe that goes from pump to steering rack (metal-rubber-metal) due to a leak, with a non-original one made by a hydraulic specialist... Ohh right just remembered that it's pressurized, so if it would have a pinhole leak you would probably see it...

Also have problems that the steering is shaking while turning hard, so it may be due to bubbles in the cylinder...

For STOP light I've checked the pressure distribution block if it's connected while I had the LHM reservoir off and it's connected. Brakes work fine and also suspension (well not that fine but it'll do... :) )

F******** car! Why does it offer so many challenges? :twisted:
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)