Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.
User avatar
MattBLancs
Donor 2024
Posts: 3906
Joined: 25 Apr 2022, 09:03
x 1799

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by MattBLancs »

EGR clamps, if it's the "normal" round pipework, then I found BMW have come up with a decent clamp design= a modified jubilee clip.
Reusable and easy to fit. Second hand ones on eBay and new from Autodoc at about same price (about £3)

If you make any progress over the Christmas break with the generally poor weather and usually lots of family stuff, all good, but a bit of enforced downtime probably do you good. Thinking time.

Well done getting it running :)
User avatar
MattBLancs
Donor 2024
Posts: 3906
Joined: 25 Apr 2022, 09:03
x 1799

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by MattBLancs »

Here's the EGR clip:
"3RG Bracket, EGR valve" on AUTODOC https://m.autodoc.co.uk/3rg/15942179
Currently £4.01, but due a "never to be repeated" blah, blah sale any time soon :rofl2:
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2024
Posts: 1511
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 256

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by darbuck »

Hi Matt, I plan to get plenty of downtime and family time. Thanks for the tip I'll order a few of them I don't think they are getting any cheaper if they do they will probably crumble in the packaging 😂😂. My kids are all grown up so no real Santy stuff to do.

As for the car I am glad I got the engine running as I was afraid it could be a problem. I'll tip away at it .all the posts the last few days are More my thought process and recording what I did, a blog if you will.

I use the car for unwinding believe it or not it helps me to clear my head and relax. I do need to get a better much cheaper hobby.

Merry Christmas to you and your family and if you have small kids enjoy the magic in their eyes for Christmas.
Darren
User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2024
Posts: 2561
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
x 144

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by KennyW »

Darren,

Not done anything with the Audi, may have brief look tomorrow.

It sounds like the clamp is the same/similar to the Xantia downpipe.

Have a Merry Christmas and enjoy the day.

Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, moved on.
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2024
Posts: 1511
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 256

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by darbuck »

Same to you Kenny.
Darren
User avatar
Muir
Donor 2024
Posts: 61
Joined: 16 Nov 2024, 17:33
x 13

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by Muir »

Hats off to you darbuck, you sure are chasing a lotta gremlins with this beast! 8-[

I don't know much about Pug/Cit diesels yet but have chased the injector problems myself - specifically cylinder balance issues.
Fairly certain you have at least one tired/worn out injector based on the deviations in injection timing.
The ECU detects that one or more injectors are not firing as fast as it/they should, and it then tries to either speed up/slow down injection timing and/or quantity to compensate and level out cylinder contribution.
Most diesels use both the crank & camshaft sensors to detect even slight variations in RPM and since ECU knows which cylinder is firing when, it will try to level compensate.
Some diesels use knock sensors too, but I don't know if yours does.

One fairly easy thing you can try is a leakback test of injectors, just to confirm which injector might be giving you grief.
Still it won't tell you if the solenoid is worn out. ECU could very well just be retarding/accelerating timing but injectors will still use the same fuel overall.

Sorry if you already tested leakback and know the problem, I was too lazy to read every page :lol:
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2024
Posts: 1511
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 256

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by darbuck »

Hi Muir, yes it's been a trial to say the least. I had these injectors tested and they passed in excellent condition. The injectors are piezo so a fault will be thrown quickly if there is an issue no misfires and no codes so I think a mechanical issue.I might run a leak off test just to see if there is anything outside tolerances but I doubt it.this engine does indeed carry a knock sensor. Timing is not retarded it's running between 9 and 15 degrees so I am happy it's ok . I have cam crank synch and I know the timing is right. I am not convinced the fuel pressure regulator is being honest. I find if I disconnect the intake after the maf it dies this tells me either it's not getting sufficient fuel or too much air the latter is very unusual in a diesel but not unheard of. To me common rail is more or less the same thing across all marks with slight differences. They all use the same control systems just write the maps slightly differently.
Herbie as I call my car is different in that it refuses to cooperate. It's possessed by a french moody teenager. I'm hoping it grows up soon 🤣
Darren
User avatar
Muir
Donor 2024
Posts: 61
Joined: 16 Nov 2024, 17:33
x 13

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by Muir »

Good thing injectors passed with flying colors, expensive things to replace they be :o
Just noted you mentioned "I have had a look at the injectors on diagbox and 2 are showing 146ms and the other two are saying -147ms.", which are pretty far off the desired mark when talking correction values.¨
I assumed it's a milisecond value but being new to Diagbox I's just a guess :-D
Going by my aging chevy cruze I know these values can get *really* far apart before a fault is thrown, and that engine also has knock sensors fitted.
With timing I was thinking more towards injection times with each injector, my thought is they might be opening/closing too slow with each injection if they're worn.

Fingers crossed it's just the intake leaks you discovered cause all subsequent problems :)
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2024
Posts: 1511
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 256

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by darbuck »

Hi Muir yes they're milliseconds. I have two hypotheses at present. One is the air leaks the other is the fuel metering valve and, the more I think about it the more I think it's the metering valve. I have ran diesel engines for testing purposes at idle with both the upper and lower intercooler hoses disconnected and it didn't shut off. So I am thinking something is starving the engine of fuel and the rail pressure is bouncing around a lot by at least 10 bar .This is a huge pressure difference for the ECU to compensate for, if it was the injectors there should be plumes of smoke from unburned diesel. I'm not seeing this though.

I'll figure it out, it's elimination and testing at this stage to figure out what is happening.ill post up when I know more. I won't get to it today anyway family stuff.to do.
Darren
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2024
Posts: 1511
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 256

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by darbuck »

Ok so I got the coolant hose at the back of the engine from the engine bay so happy days. I am now concentrating on the idling issue. I have tested the regulators and they both work. The newer one seems to be a bit weaker and it has resistance of 5.5 ohms as opposed to the 6 ohms on the old one . I'll post up when I have more done I have to bring herself into town so it will be later on this evening
Darren
User avatar
KennyW
Donor 2024
Posts: 2561
Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 21:22
x 144

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by KennyW »

Darren,

Checked the Audi, definitely no wiring for Height sensor, not going to bother any further.
Good news on your C5, I think you need to sort all the leaks first then see how it runs. Any air ingress will knock everything out of place and the ecu won't know whether its coming or going.

Kenny
C5 x7 2.0 HDi 160 hp Estate exclusive, moved on.
Xantia 2.0 Hdi 90hp 1999 only 189,000 and rising!!!!!!! Moved on to a new home
C3 1.4 petrol (SWMBO)
Xantia TD 1.9 Mk 2 Estate LX 1998 model over 210,000 miles now and still rising!!!!!!!!!!!!! now deceased 17/12/2010.
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2024
Posts: 1511
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 256

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by darbuck »

So not fitted Kenny. Ah well it would be too much hassle to bother I suppose..a pity but at least you know it's not there now.

Your right about the air leaks of course the main one is the egr gasket.

I swapped out the regulator for the original one and it took a while to settle down but it's running much better. I think once the egr gasket is replaced I will have it running nice she doesn't sound too bad now and she is not shaking half as much as she was. I have a couple of clips I forgot to put on the coolant hoses on the heater which popped off when I pressure tested the coolant system. The regulator is a pig to get at mostly because it's you can't see it and the screws for it are tiny. Allen heads. Im much happier now that the car will be ok. 😅

Edit.

Cylinder one injector is nailing a little bit but I think this will ease off the more it runs. It's definitely not as smooth as the other 3 so if may not be as good as I was led to believe by the chap who tested them. But it is within spec so I will be running it as is for now.

I will post up when I have tested the coolant system, hopefully I'll have it on the road in the coming weeks. It will need a good clean inside and out.

Tomorrow I will tidy up the cooling system and start to put the rest of the front of the car back together.
Darren
User avatar
Muir
Donor 2024
Posts: 61
Joined: 16 Nov 2024, 17:33
x 13

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by Muir »

Nice to hear it'll be on the road soon, I reckon it must provide a certain amount of satisfaction :bd:
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2024
Posts: 1511
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 256

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by darbuck »

Absolutely but given the history I have with this car i won't be convinced until it is. I still have a lot of work to do. I need to reassemble the front but I'm waiting on a new radiator to do that. The old one was damaged during storm Darragh that I only discovered today. A long crack that is just in the right place for my plastic welder not to fit I could barely see it but it leaked in several spots. Can't win em all. I'll do the little banana dance when it is though 😁.
Darren
User avatar
darbuck
Donor 2024
Posts: 1511
Joined: 25 May 2014, 16:45
x 256

Re: Injectors misbehaving but trying to understand the numbers

Unread post by darbuck »

Hi all, happy New year. I just had a look at the fuel lines coming from the filter housing and the feed line to pump has loads of air bubbles. I think my o rings are leaking causing the rough idle. I need to renew the o rings to the best of my knowledge. NBR is probably the best for diesel. Am I correct in thinking this. I have a box of them so I should have the correct sizes.
Darren