The Hydrogen Thread

[NewcastleFalcon]

But what would you do with surplus 'free' electricity at times when it's produced, but not needed, by renewable sources such as wind/solar power ? Bottling it up for use later seems like a good idea to me.

Yes the bottling up and releasing when needed, even with Hydrogen as the intermediary I can see the value of so that the fluctuations in generation of renewable energy can be managed, and used within the closed loop of the Electricity Grid.

I've watched many different vids on many different suggested solutions for storage. The previous incumbents of managing this sort of thing for us in their energy outlook National grid, ( or some arms-length "independent" incarnation of National Grid) went big on hydrogen as the intermediate store. Your least bad comment comes into the equation as all the various storage proposals have their minus, as well as plus points and some are better at short term storage, others at long term storage.

LI-ion large batteries on the minus side cycle life, short optimum storage duration, and expensive, but probably a high efficiency in terms of "round trip" electricity into storage, electricity out of storage charge-discharge-charge cycle. Hydrogen in storage needs compression and high pressure storage to store the volumes necessary, maybe more land use and a "loss" into and out of storage, but capable of a large number of charge/discharge cycles.

Whats ready to go now....I would say Hydrogen and Liquid Air as the storage intermediaries, plus LI-ion

Bit like Li-Ion batteries in cars. The "best Chemistries" for LI-ion may involve use of rare and expensive raw materials. The next development most likely to proceed and just about out of the lab is Na-Ion. Currently not as energy dense as the "best" Li-Ion chemistry, but using more ubiquitous and cheaper raw materials. Grid storage "Batteries" may not evolve down the LI-Ion route in favour of cheaper forms. Dave has churned out videos on all sorts such options some of which I quoted here but probably missed a few.

https://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/ ... 99#p714099

Regards Neil

[myglaren]

[NewcastleFalcon]

"Thank you Toyota for sponsoring this series".

Gave it a watch, cringed at some bits, but quite a bit of it was fair.

This graph for me sums up the elephant in the room for Hydrogen. Making it is a colossal waste of energy you have already generated, or natural gas you have already extracted, all reflected in an unsubsidised or untaxed world in an inevitable higher delivered price at the Hydrogen Pump for the fuel, than the electricity or natural gas you started with.

https://youtu.be/dWAO3vUn7nw?t=358

In spite of its inefficiencies, and the reluctance of Toyota Hyundai and others to "do a Tesla" and build out a refuelling structure themselves to sell their fuel cell vehicles and to start producing them at scale, hydrogen has the ears and eyes of policy makers and governments, and the vested interests of the "blue hydrogen" wing of the fossil fuel industry including at least 3 large scale projects in the UK at Teesside, Humberside, and up at the Acorn Project in Scotland.

It may be a while before I Spy a fuel cell car (or Hydrogen Pump) gets its second post on the FCF Meanwhile the green flash and the charging point are becoming commonplace.

REgards Neil

Stop Press I Spy a Fuel Cell Vehicle (or an H2 Pump) https://frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=71214 is ready and available for its second post.

[myglaren]

It was a randomish popup as I was watching a physics girl video about sunstorms and the possibility of our electrical infrastructure being wiped out fairly soon.
I agree about the hydrogen though. Looks like solving one problem by creating another.

[myglaren]

[NewcastleFalcon]

...misleading title

"In todays video we will be talking about the new hydrogen Tesla".........no they didn't. Why ...There isnt a "new hydrogen Tesla". It has nothing to do with Elon Musk or Tesla. If someone has done a conversion on a Model Y in Germany it featured for less than 10 seconds on that video, with no detail of who, when, where, specification, performance, cost etc etc, and has no connection with Tesla at all.

Regards Neil

[myglaren]

I admit to giving up after a few minutes, very annoying presenter.

[myglaren]

[NewcastleFalcon]

I'm sure tech and innovation can develop more efficient internal combustion engines, but why bother they will never get near the efficiency of an electric motor, and electric motors aren't standing still, innovation and improvement are taking them even further ahead ( as in the example in your other post here ) Even your so called hugely expensive performance end of the peak of the ICE tree, and its e-fuels has been overtaken quite easily by the electric motor. Looks like all ICE has going for it is nostalgic noise, and nostalgic pollution.

Then there is the minor snag that producing Hydrogen is a waste of both natural gas and green electricity. Only makes sense as a storage medium when power generation produces surplus electricity. Doesn't make any sense producing it as a fuel for cars.

Regards Neil

[NewcastleFalcon]

Steve posted this on the Energy matters thread also relevant here

British Steel hydrogen plans on Teesside.

Steelmaking always in the hard to decarbonise sector of industry, and in the UK at least, an activity which seems as if it can never make any decent profits and always needs rescuing.

Make it with green hydrogen and there's only one way prices will go, until the overcapacity of green electricity generation is reached and allows superabundant cheap energy.

Regards Neil

[NewcastleFalcon]

Hydrogen filling stations to open on A1 and M6

https://www.commercialfleet.org/news/la ... -a1-and-m6

The sites will be located at Conegarth, Yorkshire, and Golden Fleece, Cumbria, and will provide hydrogen refuelling services for hydrogen-powered Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGVs).

Regards Neil

[Sloppysod]

I found this quite interesting, different types of hydrogen and two different ways to produce it. Shame they didn't suggest a better way to get rid of the unwanted carbon (as in when separated from Natural gas)

[NewcastleFalcon]

I found this quite interesting, different types of hydrogen and two different ways to produce it. Shame they didn't suggest a better way to get rid of the unwanted carbon (as in when separated from Natural gas)

For me Hydrogen only makes economic sense when you have overcapacity of energy generation, so called super abundant energy. Australia has that potential, and production of Liquefied Green Hydrogen, and its export to other markets around the globe is likely to become a commodity in demand.

Japan in their Hydrogen Economy ambitions have set up shipping links with specially designed vessels for transporting liquid hydrogen from Australia to Japan already.

The inefficiencies are huge in making and transporting hydrogen in any colour, and hence the problems with price of the produced fuel, are overcome by the overcapacity of solar/wind resources in Australia. That would be nice, but it appears they are kicking it off with "Blue" Hydrogen from Australian Coal. Its a nice way of Australia turning their over abundance of Coal with a declining market into money.

https://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/ ... an#p704217

Over in Japan, they want to create a Hydrogen Economy fuelled by Australian Coal Feature on the BBC the other day. So they export the emissions to Australia with its superabundant Coal, Australia burn the coal, capture any CO₂ and other waste, and bury it under Australian soil, liquefy the H₂, and a fleet of specially designed liquid hydrogen vessels sail it to Japan, where they run the economy on it including their Toyota cars.

If I was Australia I would be charging Japan a fortune for the H₂. Of course it may be the only way forward for Australian Coal. In theory the market for its coal should be disappearing with the global "phase down".
The mutual benefit economically may well make the arrangement prosper.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-59525480

Regards Neil

[NewcastleFalcon]

Undoubtedly Green Hydrogen is going to become a commodity and it is going to be traded around the world.

Not because its a cheap energy carrier, it isn't and quite the opposite. It is a colossal waste of electrical energy you have generated from wind/solar/tidal power to produce it.

No, it's because green hydrogen works in circumstances and places which have huge generation capabilities from solar and wind, and have massive overcapacity over local needs.

BP and others know an opportunity when they see one so its not hard to see why they are pumping big investments into Australia. Yes its a long way away from some markets, but reasonably close to others, and the problems of shipping tankers with oil in all around the world from source to market has never proved an insurmountable object to trade. So it will be for Green Hydrogen. Solutions have been found, and better ones will be found to shipping hydrogen/ammonia or some other form of optimal carriage medium around the globe.

Story Here
Oil giant BP swoops for largest stake in $36bn green hydrogen mega-project in Australia

REgards Neil

[NewcastleFalcon]

There is always H₂ news. Plenty to fill this thread with new items day after day. The thread is here in the interests of a broader view of developments which are happening.

My own view is green hydrogen only works where there is a massive overcapacity of green electricity generation, and that every other colour of hydrogen is a complete waste of scarce resources to produce it.

This hydrogen news headline caught my eye..

Hydrogen wins at Winlaton, as Northern Gas succeeds in mixing green H2 into home supply
By Alban Thurston -August 17, 2022

Its interesting, obviously technically and practically possible. The old "town gas" manufactured at gasworks large and small around the country from Coal before Natural gas started being produced from the North Sea, had over 50% Hydrogen content.

Northern Gas' nice little Winlaton experiment does however create additional electricity demand to power electrolysers to produce the hydrogen to be burned in Winlaton cookers and boilers. At scale a colossally inefficient use of already generated electricity.

In the world of vested interests you can see how Northern Gas, the gas industry more generally and existing boiler manufacturers would want to promote the idea, and produce the evidence to back it up. They may leave out the volumes required of producing green hydrogen at scale for this 20%mix in the gas grid, it's likely unsubsidised cost, and the scale of electricity consumption and waste in producing green hydrogen.

REgards Neil