Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

[RichardW]

I looked it up this morning - ref my comment about repairing the car.... 5 grand!! That'll be why he didn't get it repaired then. <1 hours labour to fit it, on the up side.

[CitroJim]

What exactly is the function of the inverter? I ask as I'm wondering as these vehicle get older and less valuable if there might be a work-around...

Does the inverter just behave as a smart battery charger or does it sit between the battery and traction motors and control all aspects of the drive?

I have no doubt that whilst repair of the original unit may not be feasible someone will devise a substitute system.

It's the kind of thing I would have (might even now, given the right circumstances) done in a heartbeat and with great relish...

It is, from my viewpoint, the equivalent of doing a DIY rebuild on a 4HP20 gearbox... It hadn't been done before but I blazed the path and proved it could be... This is no different in principle...

[white exec]

Good point Jim.

With the inevitable growth of electric vehicles, a whole new sub-industry (and good DIY'ers) of repair/renovation (and build-your-own?) will hopefully evolve, in the same way that it did for mechanical ICE.

Critical will be access to circuitry and service/training documents, all of which seems to get increasingly difficult for newer and newer models of vehicle.

Do wonder, given the virtually prohibitive prices for EV major replacement parts (batteries, inverters, guess motors), whether the EV manufacturers are more than happy to see early models scrapped, so that they no longer have to be supported. Obviously happy to sell their latest models, but probably also keen to see the old/original ones no longer around. Parts prices for these (old, scarce, expensive) can only escalate.

Could there be an EV equivalent to Citroen's B7 (Hydractive) Training Module?

[CitroJim]

Do wonder, given the virtually prohibitive prices for EV major replacement parts (batteries, inverters, guess motors), whether the EV manufacturers are more than happy to see early models scrapped, so that they no longer have to be supported. Obviously happy to sell their latest models, but probably also keen to see the old/original ones no longer around. Parts prices for these (old, scarce, expensive) can only escalate.

I concur with that Chris... It wouldn't be the first time... Maybe dealers will offer tempting trade-ins for dead early EVs against a nice, shiny new one to assist in this policy...

Time will tell...

[Mandrake]

For us, that's a No, then.
Sobering information. Wonder what the cost of a new one is?
I'm guessing that the inverter is the most complicated bit of the EV powertrain, and executes all the motor (acceleration, regen braking, etc) control functions . . . or are there other similarly complex units?

What exactly is the function of the inverter? I ask as I'm wondering as these vehicle get older and less valuable if there might be a work-around...

Does the inverter just behave as a smart battery charger or does it sit between the battery and traction motors and control all aspects of the drive?

The drive inverter is a high powered DC to AC inverter usually using IGBT's to convert DC from the battery to variable frequency variable voltage/current 3 phase AC to power the motor. So yes it sits between the battery and the motor, and can be easily spotted as it will have two large orange cables going to the battery and 3 large orange cables going to the motor. It's also responsible for regeneration where it harvests the output of the motor and turns it back into DC to charge the battery.

The speed of the motor is controlled by the frequency of the sinewave. The torque control depends on the kind of motor - on an induction motor the inverter introduces deliberate frequency slip to generate torque by making the sinewave frequency slightly higher than the actual measured rotation speed of the motor. (Or slower to regenerate) For a permanent magnet motor like in my Ion, torque control is achieved by varying the phase of the AC in relation to the measured absolute position of the rotor - the more phase lead the AC has over the rotor position the more torque the motor produces and the more current it draws.

If you imagine a rotating magnetic field produced by the 3 phase stator, if you keep the field slightly head of the pole of the magnet on the rotor it will generate a torque. If you keep it in line with the magnet there will be zero torque and if you cause it to lag the motor will generate a negative torque - eg deceleration. Because the phase of the current reversed in relation to the voltage that means the motor is now acting as a generator.

The inverter is not responsible for overall control - for example taking throttle and brake inputs from the driver - that is handled by another small ECU - on the Ion it's called the EV_ECU or Electric Vehicle ECU I think, which performs most of the control that you would expect from the engine ECU in an ICE car, and is the ECU the throttle is connected to. It takes the drivers inputs and commands the inverter to produce the power to run the motor. So the inverter is basically just the high power electronics side of controlling the motor.

They're pretty incredible when you think about it - even in the Ion with its paltry 47kW motor you have a relatively small box that has a 55kW solid state DC to 3 phase AC inverter - for cars with higher power output the power electronics are correspondingly bigger! Also amazing when you consider that faults in the drive inverters is exceptionally rare. I follow speakev regularly and I'm only aware of one EV owned by anyone on the forum that has had a drive inverter fail, so they seem to be very robust, and I think the guy with the faulty Ion one was just very unlucky!

I have no doubt that whilst repair of the original unit may not be feasible someone will devise a substitute system.

Perhaps, but the drive inverter design is very specific to a given car, and has to be able to communicate back to the ECU(s) that control it, I think it's more likely that we'll just see a second hand market for them using units recovered from scrapped cars - as in the case of the link I provided. And some types of failures may be repairable by specialist repairers.

It's the kind of thing I would have (might even now, given the right circumstances) done in a heartbeat and with great relish...

It is, from my viewpoint, the equivalent of doing a DIY rebuild on a 4HP20 gearbox... It hadn't been done before but I blazed the path and proved it could be... This is no different in principle...

You'd need a pretty good knowledge of high power solid state inverter / power supply systems and circuit diagrams to be able to diagnose and fix one, so it's not a job for the shade tree mechanic, but there are plenty of people who would have the necessary electronics skills to do it. Whether repair is economic or whether it just proves to be easier to get 2nd hand units from scrapped cars as we tend to do now with ICE cars remains to be seen.

I looked it up this morning - ref my comment about repairing the car.... 5 grand!! That'll be why he didn't get it repaired then. <1 hours labour to fit it, on the up side.

Yeah, 5 grand - more than I paid for my whole car. I wonder how much that dutch company was expecting for that 2nd hand one ? "Price on request" makes me think they don't know how to price it, because on the one hand a new one is very expensive, on the other hand the market for a 2nd hand drive inverter in an Ion/C-Zero could be extremely small if almost none have failed and nobody wants one!

Swapping one over would be easy. You can disable the traction battery by removing the front passenger seat, under that is a safety cutout link plug that you pull out that disables the traction battery. (It's basically a link half way along the series string of cells) Once that is done no high voltage can emanate from the battery enclosure. The inverter itself is under the boot floor - you just lift the rear carpet and base up, undo a few wing nuts and lift the access panel off and it's right there!

Here is a picture of mine - it's the box to the right with the 5 orange cables.

[CitroJim]

Right, got it... I'm familiar with those systems and the circuitry as it's essentially similar to the phase-locked motor-alternator building UPSs I used to work on 30-odd years ago...

Those used such an inverter to drive a motor which in turn drove an alternator... The motor was so controlled to keep the alternator outputs in sync with the incoming mains which, essentially, only charged the batteries - all 440v of tem in two banks... All 2V lead-acid wet cells! One monthly task was to take their SG readings and top them up...

It was important to keep the UPS outputs in sync with each other (we had a pair) and the mains so that in the case of UPS failure (and for maintenance) the whole thing could be instantaneously bypassed to allow the building to run on raw mains...

I still have a 640A fuse and an alternator bearing from one of them as souvenirs... The bearing is about 15" in diameter!

The power of the thing does not faze me at all... I grew up fixing high-powered HF radio transmitters which were more plumbing than electronics...

You fixed them with a socket set and spanners

[Mandrake]

Price on request for a second hand one. Ha!

https://www.proxyparts.com/car-parts-st ... d/7736095/

Just realised after looking at my own picture that these guys have mislabeled this box!! It's not the drive inverter at all, its the onboard charger! (to the left on my picture)

The onboard charger is what plugs into the 240v AC mains to charge the car, rated at 3.6kW on the Ion. So that listing is wrong. I wonder if I should contact them to let them know...

[bobins]

Does the inverter just behave as a smart battery charger or does it sit between the battery and traction motors and control all aspects of the drive?

I have no doubt that whilst repair of the original unit may not be feasible someone will devise a substitute system.

Yep, they'll drop in a small petrol engine and gearbox

[CitroJim]

Does the inverter just behave as a smart battery charger or does it sit between the battery and traction motors and control all aspects of the drive?

I have no doubt that whilst repair of the original unit may not be feasible someone will devise a substitute system.

Yep, they'll drop in a small petrol engine and gearbox

I had similar thoughts earlier! Maybe a C1/107 engine and gearbox...

Just realised after looking at my own picture that these guys have mislabeled this box!! It's not the drive inverter at all, its the onboard charger! (to the left on my picture)

Ahh well, that's a LOT easier to work around then...

[Mandrake]

Today was to be airbag recall day but alas, another bungle courtesy of Peugeot.

The previous time I had it booked in the airbag hadn't arrived and it turns out ended up taking nearly two additional weeks to arrive.

They claim they need the car for two days for the work so when it did arrive I booked it in with a courtesy car for the two days, and while they could do the job on its own a couple of days from then there was a lead time of 3 weeks to get a courtesy car for the two days.

So I roll up this morning, first they can't find the job at all on their computer (always a good start) and when they find some paperwork for it they tell me they don't have a courtesy car available, despite it being booked 3 weeks in advance. FFS! They really need to get their booking system in order, it is chronically bad, this is the third screwed up booking I've had with them now which they'll no doubt try to blame their call centre for.

Although I have the Xantia the logistics of dropping off and picking up my son, dropping off and picking up the Peugeot, trying to get to work on time and my other half not being a driver to allow for getting two cars back home make it logistically impossible if they are going to have the car for two days.

If they only needed it for one day I can walk to work after dropping it off and walk back to pick it up, but two days just doesn't work when I have a child to pick up and I'm the only driver in the family. They claim they need an EV for two days regardless of what work they do because they're told to make sure it is fully charged before returning it to the customer... I've already pointed out that I have enough range to drive into Glasgow and home again without stopping to charge and do so every day, but no, they insist they have to fully charge an EV overnight before they can hand it back to the customer.

So I'm now rescheduled a second time to the 26th-27th. Wish me luck!

And people wonder why we look after our own old out of warranty cars instead of buying new in warranty ones that require dealer servicing!!

[CitroJim]

Simon, that's simply outrageous

I'd be writing a very stiff letter to Peugeot and the dealer...

And TWO DAYS to do an airbag... Don't be silly! 30 minutes tops I'd say... While you wait...

[Hell Razor5543]

I would start billing that dealership for YOUR time that has been wasted, at whatever your actually hourly rate of pay is (and send copies to both Peugeot UK and your local Trading Standards), detailing WHY you have had to take this action. I might also suggest you state that, should it happen again, you will be doubling the amount charged, as compensation for the aggravation and inconvenience that this has caused you and your young family.

[Mandrake]

To be honest I'll just be glad when I'm shot of Peugeot. I have this airbag recall replacement then the last "service" in June (where they charge a lot of money to do nothing but check some boxes on on a sheet of paper) to maintain the last year of extended battery warranty and after that I won't ever be going back again except to the parts counter.

The parts counter is generally pretty decent and that's the only part of their business that I would ordinarily have to deal with....

[white exec]

Not the first time I've heard pained complaints about Peugeot service and customer 'care'. Their dealers can be large and impersonal (partly because they sell so many cars), and, historically, have contrasted with Citroen dealerships, who tended to be much more customer-focussed, and often started out as small family businesses. Although all that has got whiskers on it, company ethos can take years to change, and it might partly explain on-going Citroen loyalty.

Out-of-warranty, Simon, you always have the choice of having it attended to as a C-Zero... or even the other thing

[Mandrake]

Not the first time I've heard pained complaints about Peugeot service and customer 'care'. Their dealers can be large and impersonal (partly because they sell so many cars), and, historically, have contrasted with Citroen dealerships, who tended to be much more customer-focussed, and often started out as small family businesses. Although all that has got whiskers on it, company ethos can take years to change, and it might partly explain on-going Citroen loyalty.

Out-of-warranty, Simon, you always have the choice of having it attended to as a C-Zero... or even the other thing

Unfortunately the main Peugeot and Citroen dealers in Glasgow merged a year or two ago. They used to be independent and were a block away from each other and each had their own independent workshops, parts department, showrooms etc.

Now they are right next door to each other and while they have separate showrooms they share the same service department and parts department. So I'd be going to the exact same place for service or parts if I pretended it was a C-Zero! (Ironically it is the Peugeot building that moved during the merge and is the one that is only a showroom - the workshop and parts department of the Citroen branch was the one that was retained)

Like I said, once the last "service" is done in June I won't be back, except to the parts department. Other than catastrophic failures that would be too expensive for them to fix out of warranty anyway, I can't see anything on this car that they could fix for a reasonable price that I couldn't fix myself, especially when I have full service data for it and a Lexia...