Energy Matters Global and Domestic

[thorter]

So who pays for V2G? The round trip efficiency of the power that goes via this storage will be a maximum of 80%, so we need 1.25 times as much as if we generated the right amount of power at the right time!

[NewcastleFalcon]

So who pays for V2G?

This is my understanding, currently as in the trials. Customer is compensated by V2G service provider, for allowing V2G service provider to have access to their battery (yes which the customer has paid for in acquiring their vehicle).

V2G will be very much commercially driven, rather than an altruistic desire to "help the grid". Its purpose is the buying and selling of electricity. When drivers make their vehicle battery available for V2G use, the battery is available to be used for "trading" by the V2G Companies who aggregate a network of individual participants adding up to a critical mass of storage capacity. Electricity can be bought and sold utilising the aggregated storage many times over in the course of a day.

I expect the likes of VW could well move to a leasing arrangement for their batteries on the back of this, Battery as a Service as it is dubbed. (BaaS) so they retain control of batteries throughout their lifetime, from installation in a new car to repurposing as static batteries, to eventual recycling.

Regards Neil

[Gibbo2286]

My feeling about the V to G is that if it pays a few quid while the car's doing nothing for a few days that's good for my bank account, the old diesel could stand for months and earn nothing. the road tax would be just daily wasting away whether I used it or not.

Every time I top up the EV charge for free at Tesco I think "That's another fifty quid saved."

[NewcastleFalcon]

My feeling about the V to G is that if it pays a few quid while the car's doing nothing for a few days that's good for my bank account, the old diesel could stand for months and earn nothing.

The deal has to be attractive enough both ways. Undoubtedly whatever organisation provides the V2G service will take the lions share of the revenues from utilising your permission to include your vehicle battery in their aggregate storage, facilitating their buying and selling of electricity/ storage capacity.

Without making it obviously financially worthwhile for vehicle owners to participate and sign up to V2G, the business model doesn't work. With the trials the emphasis has been on user control of the parameters through an app. The more restrictive the parameters you would expect the lesser financial reward for the customer.

Understandable objections also need to be overcome like degradation of the vehicle battery with larger numbers of charge/discharge cycles, warranty coverage for V2G use, and overrides when the customer needs the vehicle unexpectedly and needs to opt out of the V2G commitment at short notice.

NIO the Chinese luxury car brand, in particular use Battery as a Service, and also have a Battery Swap Station model which they also have ambitions to employ in Vehicle to Grid activity. Manufacturers are more likely to go down the route of Battery as a Service, as V2G develops, taking any battery longevity anxiety away from customers signing up for V2G.

Regards Neil

[bobins]

Is it reasonable to assume most of the V2G activity will be for load balancing and so will primarily take place during the daytime 7.00am to 11.00pm ish, or are the companies behind it really after squeezing every last drop of revenue out of each electron ?

[thorter]

V to G is only suitable for short term load balancing, there could never be enough capacity to cover lulls in renewable generation. The problem is that it will be very expensive once everyone in the loop gets what they consider their share. Indeed this is exactly the scenario we have already due to the closure of dispatchable capacity, with the cost of load balancing causing spikes of 2 or 3 times the basic market price, see once more https://www2.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=eds/main

The future will be permanently very expensive.

[NewcastleFalcon]

The Lady with the Leaf in the trial had OVO energy effectively as their Vehicle to Grid service provider. Whether they have their own "Autobidder" trading platform like the Tesla VPP I dont know. I expect "Autobidder" would be the more "aggressive" in terms of revenue generation from each electron.

This little section of the Lady with the Leaf video indicates the non traction battery use of V2G activity. V2g activity over the year used twice as much of the battery capacity as miles driven and on some days the battery was charged and discharged several times for V2G activity.

Starts at the relevant bit.



Regards Neil

[bobins]

I can't help thinking that they (Ovo) were effectively gaming the spot market with her Leaf in order to make money. Whilst, in a sense, the spot market is load balancing, if I had an asset (like a Leaf) that someone else wanted to use to make money with, then I'd want good money for someone to use that asset - my starting position would be the spot market price, it's a seller's market. Ovo aren't a charity and they don't need my goodwill.

[RichardW]

Given that battery life is directly related to charging cycles, this seems like a bad idea - especially on a Leaf that has no thermal battery management!!

[NewcastleFalcon]

Not a bad simple coverage of what V2G involves.

Octopus also did a bit of trialling with Nissan on Board...those participating in the Trial their warranties were unaffected according to the Octopus rep in the vid.


V2G capability was always built into the Leaf and the Chademo Connector, and not originally into the inferior in this respect European standard CCS connector. CCS may have changed now but if it hasn't it will need to.

Octopus trial....and what do they use the pioneering Chademo!, the pioneering Nissan Leaf.



REgards Neil

[mickthemaverick]

With regard to the lady's video posted above:

Clearly the discrepancy in the distance recorded is simply that the car's odometer is in Km despite being labelled miles, however the point that struck me most was the import export figures which showed a net import of approx 2000 KWh which is less than the power used for travelling although the figure of 3.5 miles per kWh should be 3.5 Km per Kwh as the odometer reading is in Km despite the labeling. That would make it 2.1 miles per KWh which is less impressive altogether. Could this be another Nissan attempt to dupe the motorist after dieselgate?

[NewcastleFalcon]

With regard to the lady's video posted above:

Cant see where that comes from Mick

Speedo main display large numbers in mph, Odometer plainly miles, economy monitor mile/kWh, and 3.5 is about right. (mine is showing 4.6 miles /kWh....summer and a lighter battery at 24kWh)

The thing that is wrong is Leaf Spy! A non-Nissan plug in tool which probably has the wrong formula in that box!

PS that is confirmed in the intro blurb. Leaf spy assumes the odometer is in kilometres (when it isn't) and does a conversion.

Regarding why the Odometer and LeafSpy differ in displayed mileage, for some reason, LeafSpy believes the Odometer figure is in Kilometres and - obligingly but erroneously - changes the figure to Miles for us. (My brother pointed that out about two hours after the video went live which was a bit embarrassing!) Anyhow, now we all know.

Regards Neil

[mickthemaverick]

The odometer reading in the car is exactly the leafspy reading converted from miles to km. Too much of a coincidence for me to believe that leafspy has the wrong figure because why would it be the same distance?
You can see her calculation used the 8k figure which is the issue!

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5261/3.5 = 1503 kWh for reference!!

Now read your edit while compiling that so at least that clears it up!! I would imagine there is a setting in the leafspy software for you to define distance in miles and it has been set in km or something of that nature!!

[Gibbo2286]

Given that battery life is directly related to charging cycles, this seems like a bad idea - especially on a Leaf that has no thermal battery management!!

Is that still the case on the later Leaf models?

[Gibbo2286]

The odometer reading in the car is exactly the leafspy reading converted from miles to km. Too much of a coincidence for me to believe that leafspy has the wrong figure because why would it be the same distance?
You can see her calculation used the 8k figure which is the issue!


Now read your edit while compiling that so at least that clears it up!! I would imagine there is a setting in the leafspy software for you to define distance in miles and it has been set in km or something of that nature!!

I wonder if anyone has suggested that to the lady in the comment she asks for..