405 XUD 'Missing'

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

Hi Guys, hope you can help as ever

My 405's 'missing' a little, especially around 40-45mph in 3rd (rev counter doesn't work); just doesn't want to pull; almost like hitting the rev limiter (obviously not the case).

I'm inclined to think that the Injector timing's the most likely cause as its been driving 'a bit weird' since I replaced the Cam Belt. In particular from a near stand-still (5mph maybe), throttle response is sharp to the point of being ridiculous; it sometimes just wants to 'take off', which in a 1.9 na is most surprising ! *

Also noticed it partic at 65mph in top, just a slight 'lumpiness' to it: because of this pressed it harder than I normally would and got to 80mph without fuss as usual. Not that I usually drive it that fast, 65mph is fast enough for the old girl, 'Mechanical Sympathy' n all that. 80mph for those rare occasions when traffic merits it.

Idle's smooth & normal and it revs well without load. Temp gauge normal too, and starting's instant. No fuel leaks from injectors, pipe work or pump that I can find. Fuel filter could do with changing, as its over 20k ago that I changed it, but its almost never run below 1/4 tank, so unlikely to be clogged. Always proper diesel, I'm very 'anti' Veg, seems false economy to me.

Keen for it to be 100% as its longest annual run is next week, approx 1,500miles round trip to Inverness & back, 4up & luggage, with associated 'holiday mileage' while there.

*Performance in this car has always been good and its been significantly better since the cam belt change. It out-performs my previous 405 considerably, (which had two different engines in it); is far smoother & quieter at speed than them and happier to rev through the gears. In fact I'd fairly confidently say its the best performer of all my 1.9 na XUD's (I've never had a turbo): 309, ZX, two 405's and a third short term 405 for a month temporary. About 150,000m by me in all of them in 10years, 50k in this one....(243 thou & counting, by far the highest of the lot, over double that of a couple of 'em; mileage isn't everything)


But its not right, and I'm keen to hold onto it a good while yet, and not find myself by the side of the road in the Highlands. Anyone come across something similar got any ideas or point me in the direction of a relevant previous post? And can I adjust the pump timing with it running? (will work out the 'physics' of it on my spare engine). 'tis not the 'first knockings' of Pump Failure is it (Lucas Rotodiesel)? Many thanks you lovely people for all your very useful advice past & future

[jimmymarsbar]

Sounds like an injector to me - on the works 307 it had very similar symptoms. The small copper washer seal at the end of the injector had deformed or had been "pinched" and wasn't a perfect seal.

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

thanks Jimmy, much appreciated; will follow that up

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

An Update...
If you've got limited time just read this line. It all went horribly, horribly wrong.

Having no idea how to test the injectors
and knowing that I have as yet failed to source replacement copper washers for them
and also knowing that there's no chance of a copper washer being 'pinched' as they've not been out in 5 years +

...I decided to first investigate the timing

So I found all the old posts I could on here and elsewhere [links at foot]

Off I went, loosening the pump and adjusting the timing; while taking the precaution of also removing the relevant bit of cam belt cover

And I ended up with a car that wouldn't start. In retrospect I now believe that this is coz I didn't pin the pulleys before adjusting the timing.

So after a tow to the garage, them getting it started, a new Cam Belt Tensioner/Idler and a Fuel Filter, suspicion fell upon the Injector Pump itself, which has a slight and occasional leak from the Throttle Spindle; and using a bit of 'logic' I thought surely a mis-fire can only be fuel delivery or compression (and I'm confident the latter's good and if it were a compression issue it'd be slow and vent through the oil filler; neither of which applies).

So having a spare engine, I removed that one and had them fit it (thinking I could probably cope with the fitting myself, but what of the timing), only to find that it leaks like a sieve and to complicate matters further, the Starter Motor's now given up.

So, I goes to the garage, unable to incur any more costs on the car; fits a replacement starter motor myself and also removes the replacement Fuel Pump and fits the old one back again. Timing....? who cares, my pride & joy is now a whisker away from being weighed in; but I'll not be careless of course and so I spray paints the pump to back-plate mounting before removing it, and I locks the flywheel, cam and pump on both bolts; leaving the pulley in situ.

The old girl starts on her original pump with a minimum of fuss and runs sufficiently well to drive 4 miles home and do a bit of joy-riding too, though still intermittently missing/hunting and also currently missing the little doofer on the end of the cold start cable as I've dropped it, either behind the alternator or down the cast iron PAS / Alternator mount (top mounted PAS on this one).

So I need to source a new fuel pump, coz hey, maybe it IS the Injectors, but lets put a replacement pump on it first for the sake of about 30quid ish, possibly a Bosch, I know I need to change the fuel lines if I use a Bosch one, do I need to change the Injectors too; and are there any timing complications?

I sincerely hope it doesn't all go wrong coz I'd be broken-hearted to scrap it, but if it does; I'll have no choice, I cannot spend any more on garage bills.

So its 4 adults & luggage in a 5dr Mk2 106 to Inverness on Sunday, they're reasonably spacious for what they are, but this is pushing it; but we'll have to manage and I don't have the time or enthusiasm to attempt to source one prior and my stress levels, not to mention those of my missus who has some fairly severe anxiety issues anyway without this, are through the roof.

I moved the old girl this morn and despite the iffy driving yesterday, and the lack of a cold idle cable clamp; she started instantly and drove normally for 100yards til I stopped to reverse into a space outside home, at which point she cut out and I decided not to attempt a restart but to simply push it into a space. There it'll sit a while.

Symptoms yesterday
COLD SYMPTOMS:
poor idle
easy starting
mininal white-ish smoke,

HOT SYMPTOMS:
lack of power at half or 3/4 throttle, as if you're not attempting to accelerate at all...
...(throttle cable is correctly adjusted)
goes well if you floor it and rev it hard (nearly 50 in 3rd at which point it was missing like crazy much MUCH harder than I'd usually drive it; on the limiter?) with nice engine note and I think, no smoke (but it was dark)
pump didn't appear to leak (looking in the dark, no trace this morning either)
occasional SLIGHTLY hunty idle
slightly slow idle (likely timing)
slightly clatter'y, not enough to sound like a Ford Transit, but louder than usual, (likely timing), passengers are surprised when I telll em its a diesel

PLEASE HELP if you can, I'm really rather desperate. No replies next week to any helpful posts, coz I don't have a modern phone and won't be aware of any posts til I get back home.

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/threads/in ... oms.24072/
http://motor.onehowto.com/article/how-t ... -8178.html
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... php?t=4898
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=20864

[chinkostu]

Oh dear sounds like a nightmare. If you're adjusting the pump timing you shouldn't need to mess with the cam cover, just slacken the 3 nuts and pivot it around on its mount! If you time the cam and crank you should be able to get the pump timed up on its pulley and then adjust the advance from there. Is it wrong to think you might be pulling air in?

As for the cold idle doohickey, if you have a scrappers nearby they're pocketable

[ekjdm14]

My thoughts as well were air-in-fuel related, based mainly on the occasional hunting idle. I suppose if the fuel filter still hasn't been changed that'd be worthwhile to do as well as making sure there's no air being drawn in through the housing or pipework. If the pump manages to leak fuel out of the throttle spindle, however slight, it's also got enough room to draw small amounts of air in I'd warrant.

The timing could account for the rest of the issues but if you can get a known good pump for that sort of money you may as well swap that before going further into getting it spot on. As for the possibility of the heavy miss at high revs being the rev limiter (governor, on a derv) it's highly unlikely since it won't "bounce" like a petrol's 'limiter, they sit at maximum revs smoothly, just the same as they'd sit on half throttle or idle.

For my money I'd definitely replace the fuel filter first and make sure there's absolutely no chance of air being drawn in, as the hunting/poor idle and that high speed "miss" make me feel that's the key. Hope your holiday goes smoothly and not too uncomfortably in the 106, at least it's not as hot now as it's been.

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

Thanks everso for the replies chinkostu and ekjdm14.

Chinkostu, that's the worry, coz that's exactly what I did !! (4 nuts, 2 at the flange, 1 pig to get at underneath and one at the back) yet it all went pear shaped. How?!
Mindful of the previous fiasco I pegged the cam and flywheel before I put the old pump back on so's to avoid a 'repeat'.
Yeh, its gotta be air hasn't it..... [hopes]. I'm gonna first replace the hand priming pump and check all the unions, second run it from a can rather than the tank with the new fuel line (I bought 2metres of it); third replace the injector pump, fourth replace injectors and copper washers.
And cold idle dubrey, can nick the one from the spare engine's pump; gonna try the Hoover behind the Alternator and down the PAS/Alt bracket first though.
Xantia Estate by the way, my dream car.... if you ever want rid of it (& if its an estate) let me know first.


ekjdm14: fuel filter's done and 'known good pump', no sadly not; you pays your money n takes your chance but he will likely take it back if its a bad 'un, keeping an eye on Ebay for Breakers too as an alternative. Thought I was probably safe with the 306 engine & pump as noted some serious rot in the floor of it & concluded most likely that the reason for it being there. Thanks for the correction on the rev limiter, never knew that; but should've realised having had a Ford Orion 1.6D, 'C' reg, years back; that was always on the limiter!! The most appallingly underpowered car you could ever drive, so much so that pulling onto busy roundabouts was dangerous; think Ford later made 'em 1.8's. Possibly had the 'petrol' gearbox in it. Holiday was lovely, not as cramped as you'd expect in the 106 (5door) and didn't touch a drop of oil or water in 1,531miles; furthest point Lossiemouth (beautiful spot by the way, who didn't know the Scottish beaches are just lush and on the end of the Gulf Stream here so weather tends to be good). And the good side is that of course the 106 is a touch more economical than my 405, returning in the low 60's mpg; so fuel bill was 35 quid each with a bit left for owner's perks. Nice to see you also clearly enjoyed ZX ownership, mine was a very uncommon 2 door (not Volcane), huge doors they were; I liked mine too; fear they're very unloved these days, which is a shame.

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

update: photos of today's festivities here, runs a treat from the can
(drains it rather quick coz I've not got a 'return' but can live with a mouthful of diesel manually siphoning it back from the tank, doesn't taste as bad as you might expect)

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

latest.... oh what a relief, here's the primary issue, which explains it running fine from a can, but won't run for more than 15seconds from the tank.

My initial joy was 'tempered' when I realised that its not simply a case of pulling the rear seat & carpet up.

Any tips & advice how to remove the tank with a minimum of Drama much appreciated.

Not sure how I feel about the garage failing to notice this

[chinkostu]

Hey dude we can't see the pics, whats happened?

[myglaren]

Photo's are visible for me - I don't have a bookface account either.

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

that's weird, the link works for me and the photos are defo 'Public'. I'm not sure if you mean today's photos, or both sets; so I've uploaded all of them to Photobucket.
http://s77.photobucket.com/user/julian9991/library/

The latest 13 photos apply to both posts. When you get to the one with the red tailgate in it, you're beyond them

I'm on a Tower PC using Firefox.

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

two new pics added today, photobucket as link above. 'The Culprit'. Expect to be on the road again tomorrow, wahey!

[Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur]

HAPPINESS !!! timing is a mile out so its a bit sluggish, but started up with a minimum of fuss and completed a local journey of about 30miles in all no trouble. Thanks everyone !!