Xantia 2.1TD...Couple of probally major problems...?

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pickles

Xantia 2.1TD...Couple of probally major problems...?

Post by pickles »

Hi guys..hope you can help...

A few weeks ago my wife noticed that the passenger footwell in the front of the car was damp, On closer inspection by lifting the carpets we discovered that the footwell was drenched in clean non smelly water substance...

When we dragged a blade like object across the front passenger footwell carpet we pulled up a green oily substance but there is no sign of this under the carpet....the rear footwell behind is also soaked and running in the clear water...the carpet in there is just wet not oily....

Any suggestions....

Also...I have the troublesome Cooling Fan problem with this car...

On the 2.1TD A/C....Only one fan works at High Speed, Kicks in when it gets hot...Was lead to beleive that both should turn slowly at all times...?...then both at high speed when hot....

I have read a few posts on this but is there a quick way to determine the faults...?

Many thanks in advance...

Gavin....
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Post by rory_perrett »

Cooling fans - the problem most likely lies with the 3 relays which are positioned between the two fans. To get to them remove the plastic panel between the headlights, its held on with 2 torx screws and 2 plastic "push" clips. They are in a triangular shaped plastic housing. The link http://www.peugeotlogic.com/workshop/base/workshop.htm and then look under electrical is very useful as it describes basically the same system. On mine the relays and contacts looked really "cooked" but once the contacts were cleaned up it all worked again.
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Post by mbunting »

Hmm, sounds like the "green" stuff could be coolant - in which case your matrix or a connection is probably up the swanny.

Other known things are a blocked sunroof drain - I had the drivers rear footwell an inch deep in water because the rear drain was blocked, another I've read about is water coming through the scuttle panel or something like that.

Can't see where the green stuff is coming from if it's not your coolant, unless it's residue from a recent "carpet cleaning" valet type operation that's just mixed with the water ?

Mat.
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Post by rory_perrett »

Leak - have a look underneath and see if it looks like any of the rubber bungs in the floor pan are missing or damaged. If you are not loosing coolant then it is unlikely to be the heater matrix. I suspect that one is missing on our Series 1 1.9 TD and the front foot well is slightly damp and oily although I wouldn’t describe it as ever wet. The oily stuff is LHM from a slight leak around pressure regulator that is probably getting draw back with the airflow at speed.
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Post by Clogzz »

2002 C5 2.0i AL4 230,000 km 76372389
pickles

Post by pickles »

Thanks Clogzz

You said this on a previous thread....
Don’t understand the relevance of voltages between the pins.
From what I do think, the sender switch has a permanent 12 Volts on pin 1.
Shorting pin 1 to pin 2 sends 12 V to one relay to operate the low speed on both fans.
Shorting pin 1 to both pins 2 & 3 energises all 3 relays to spin both fans at the high speed.
This map shows how the relays operate the fans, actually simpler because there’s the sender switch in place of the Bitron:
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=17012
Please excuse my ignorance but can you explain exaclty
where the pins are that i need to short...I cant see anything labeled up on
the drawings called Sender switch...?

Many thanks in advance....

Gavin....
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Post by Clogzz »

The link in my quote shows the fan speed control for fans controlled by the electronic control box called ‘Bitron’.
It doesn’t have the sender switch on the radiator, and we have only recently found out :? that there are air-conditioned cars that have a sender switch on the radiator to control the fans:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=19090

You would need to work out which arrangement you have, by looking for the switch on the radiator.
If you do have it, then it applies as here:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=19044

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=18965

If you don’t have a radiator sensor switch, then you have Bitron control, and it then goes as here:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=18871

If the car is of early vintage, it’s more likely to have radiator sensor switch control.
Bitron control may well be for vintages from 1995.

The fans are meant to be stopped when the air conditioning is off, and the engine cool.
They should always be at the low speed with the air conditioning on.
That’s providing that there is no other emergency condition that sends both of them to the high speed.
When the engine is close to overheating, both fans should spin at the high speed.
You obviously have loss of the low speed.
You may have to explore behind the grille, to poke around the relays, as per rory_perrett’s post above.

Best wishes for a good fiddle, and keep us posted. :)
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pickles

Post by pickles »

Hi...

Ok...Well I think with your help and all the others on the various threads I have managed to narrow it down to a knackered Fan....

Heres what I did....

I removed all three of the relays in the center of the fans...
I then Determined which one was the left fan Relay by following you method described on another thread by listening for the Click when partially inserted....

With all three relays unpluged I did the following tests reading the schematic diagram....

I sent a 12V live to the no.4 pin of the change over relay...This turned on the right hand fan...Correct according to the diagram...

I sent a 12V live to the no.5 pin of the right hand fan relay...This turned on the right hand fan...Correct according to the diagram...

I then shorted pins 4 and 3 on the change over relay and sent a 12V live to pin 5 of the left hand fan relay...Neither fan turns on....This circuit would send 12v to left hand fan then onto right hand fan....

I then connected a 12V live to pin 5 of the left hand relay and negative to pin 3 of the change over relay...Neither fan switched on...This circuit should power up the left hand fan....

From these tests I think (shoot me down please if I am talking brown stuff) that the left hand fan is dead....Let me know your thoughts...

Ok....how the hell do you get the front bumper of....I read somewhere
that you can unclip the rad and tilt it backwards to get at the bolts holding the fans on but I could not manage this.....

Cheers guys.....

Gavin.....
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Post by davetd »

Green stuff indicates LHM leak. :shock:

There was a thread on here a fortnight ago by someone that had LHM tracking from the resevoir into their footwell.
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Post by Clogzz »

Hi Gavin, :)

And yes, you’re on the right track, and may have nearly made it.
The fault may still be in the wires, or connectors.
First is to ensure that the fan blades turn freely, that the motor is not seized or blocked.
Next, with two pins from the sewing box, :roll: poke into the wires to the fan, and apply the voltage to the pins to locate the interruption.

It’s possible to take the motor out without moving the radiator or removing the bumper.
The member citronut has an old post about how to do that, but I can’t find the topic with the search.
The blades are held in with a central screw that has a left-handed thread.
After that, the bolts at the back of the motor can be reached with a 10 mm pipe spanner with pivoting head.
Our tribal elder :D has a topic about replacing fan motor brushes, though in the UK it may be simpler to get another one from a wreck:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=10752

The pictures in this French thread may be of use as a last resort, if you have to do it the long way:

http://www.planete-citroen.com/forum/sh ... 530&page=3

Best wishes, and still keep us posted. :D
2002 C5 2.0i AL4 230,000 km 76372389
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Post by DaveW »

Gavin,


I can confirm that you can get the fans out and replace them through the front.

As Clogzz has said, in the centre of the blade part is a small L/H threaded screw. Take care when removing it as behind it is a tiny countersunk ant-vibration washer - very easy to overlook. Once the screw is out the fan blades can be removed and this allows just enough room to get a small socket spanner round the back to undo the three motor mount bolts.
The wiring socket (on the bottom plastic arm) is v. awkward to remove but once you have done that the wiring bundle simply pulls out of the groove in the arm.
The motor can then be squeezed out (a tight fit) through the opening.

Dave.
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Post by dnsey »

Green stuff indicates LHM leak.
If it's LHM, you'll tell by the characteristic smell.
pickles

Post by pickles »

Hi Guys....

Ok....Had the car in bits again :)

Right....the screw holding the fan in place was knackered and
totally ceased...I tried both directions gently first just incase this
was a right hander..but I gave it a full portion left and it was totally
stuck...

So...I removed the fan bladed cery carelfully with a 20mm drill bit...Dont
ask but its of now and I will put a new one on anyway...

Now....Please can you tell me exaclty what tool i need to access and undo
the three bolts....I have very little room between the secondary radiator and the area in question..probally onyl 20mm at best...This is an AirCon car so i guess this second thinner radiator is something to do with that...?

On another note I completely dried the car out yesterday by removing passenger front and back seats and carpets....nice and dry in there now...

While the car was striped out i took her upto cruising temp and had the Heater on Full heat for at least 15 mins....no leak visable...I then for the hell of it done it with max cool....no leak visable....

I am begining to wonder as advised that it was LHM on the top of the carpet in the front and Rain Water under the mats.....it was to fresh for rad water and the fact i could not see any leaking after drying points to maybe a water leak from outside....

Let me know your thoughts and about the fan removal....

Many thanks agian...

Gavin.....
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Post by Clogzz »

That’s the air conditioning condenser in the way.
If it gets holed, the gas will escape. :shock:
A 10 mm socket from a ¼ inch drive set is less than an inch long, and may do if you can grab it with pliers.
Tool shops have cheap tube spanners that can be cut short with a metals saw.

Image

They have one size per end.
Say one end is 9 mm, the other end is 10 mm.
Or 10 mm and 11 mm.
Get the smallest one to fit, and grab it with pliers.
You may need gloves because the condenser fins are sharp. :shock:

Best of luck, and courage, and care. :)
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Post by DaveW »

I have a 1/4" socket set that has short sockets and found that I could get in with one of these and the small swivel head mini breaker bar that is also part of the set.

I had done most of the work with the hoses disconnected and the rad.(s) tilted back but replaced the fan as above, with the rad.(s) back in position, just to see if it was possible - for future reference so to speak !

Savlon is very soothing on minor cuts :)

Dave.
Xantia Forte 1.8i, 16v X reg.(09/2000) 93K, aircon
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