Brief Encounter II - The Sequel

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 09 Feb 2009, 17:45

jgra1 wrote: reserved

John, that's really wonderful news, thank you so much

I'll take a run up and collect it as soon as I can although I must wait for my back to get itself sorted out first though. I'll be very happy to pick up your gas tester and if you're about Will, pop back around Donny and say hello

If the mount is broken (and I assume the end mount that goes up into the donut on the N/S inner wing) then I reckon I'll have to pull mine off and swap the innards into my casting or rather, just swap over the broken casting.

I guess by kick-down switch he really means the gear position switch.

Anyway, as I say, brilliant news and a smile is on my face as I type this after a busy, brain-mushing day on this course I'm attending....

John, I'm assuming cash on collection or does he want it up-front?

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 09 Feb 2009, 18:36

hi Jim, yep I assume he must mean selector switch.. there was no kickdown switch on mine IIRC..

Cash, you can either paypal him to be sure, or cash on collection will be fine.. he runs a breaking company... I have used him 4 times in the last 4 months with no probs..

I am in a quandary.. I could do with the analyser to check the exhaust gases on the chevy, its next trip is the MOT and i firstly want it to pass emissions, but also want to know its not overly lean or rich, at 10mpg's its a shock compared to the WVO xant

But if I was going that far I may as well go on up to dads and get that pesky 306 running... hmm...

will pm you breakers details later

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 09 Feb 2009, 22:07

jgra1 wrote: But if I was going that far I may as well go on up to dads and get that pesky 306 running... hmm...

John,

An excellent idea

If we plan this I reckon we should be able to do both in the same weekend....

We must have a natter...

KP · Unread post by KP » 10 Feb 2009, 08:11

Sounds like a good idea Jim and John your welcome as well.

If the gas analyser is easier for you both to pick up from donny let me know where it is and i may be able to pick it up sometime for you?

at 100kgs i'd need to take the estate and buy a hoist to get the thing out lol

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 14 Feb 2009, 23:00

Been out spannering the V6 today

I needed it too after a week of deep It training. It was so good to get back to mechanical things

With the prospect of getting hold of another gearbox next week, I have now started the big job of getting ready to get te old one out. Tghe car is now up on stands, the wheels are off and all jobs that might need a running engine are now done. before I went too far I undid the driveshaft nuts as I've made an early decision to pull the driveshafts right out both sides to give maxumum room.

For the first time today I got a good look underneath and the scale of the job I'm undertaking here. In reckon the gearbox will just come out without disturbing the engine but it's going to be tight with fag-paper clearances to contend with - hence the decision to totally remove the driveshafts. On the subject of the driveshafts, that's not going to be easy either given the location of one of the O/S driveshaft "Hockey Stick" bolts almost totally obscured by the rather artistic exhaust system that curls rather elegantly around the rear of the engine like a big fat snake

The V6 really is a work of art but I do wonder how many shoe-horns Citroen used when building the thing. It's pretty well all crammed in and long arms and small hands is going to be a distinct advantage in the coming weeks...

Hopefully, more progress tomorrow. I shall now do a bit each day as weather and light allows....

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 14 Feb 2009, 23:28

thanks Will

the gas analyser is not 100 kgs

but I think it's on route to Jim's autobox, I just need to convince Jim to help with hitching the fuel tanker to the back of the V6 coupe or we will have to use a TD for the trip

Jim those hockeys are a bit more tricky... but not a nightmare...

instead of 5 mins its 15

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 14 Feb 2009, 23:45

jgra1 wrote:I just need to convince Jim to help with hitching the fuel tanker to the back of the V6 coupe or we will have to use a TD for the trip

I was going to say John, we need to discuss the logistics for the weekend

We can use my TD no worries and being an Estate, it has plenty of space for both the 'box and your gas analyser.

Do you want to come up here and then we proceed in my TD?

Have a think of anything else we need for your dad's car...

Thanks for the reassurance on the hockey sticks

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 15 Feb 2009, 00:09

I know but Jim it's a coupe!

will yap tomorrow sometime

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 15 Feb 2009, 06:28

jgra1 wrote: will yap tomorrow sometime

Yep, give me a call John, any time as I'll be out working on the V6 and giving my 1.9TD a pre-MOT...

So lovely to be back playing cars

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 17 Feb 2009, 20:40

Ahh, happiness is....

Working on a V6

Work has commenced to remove the gearbox. The car is up on stands at the front, wheels are off and bits are being removed to expose as much of the 'box as possible prior to it's removal.

I'm still hopeful it will come out without having to lift out the engine too but only time and more work will tell. When I get my spare 'box this weekend, i should be able to tell just how far the 'box has to come away from the flywheel before it can drop down. If it's less than about 12cm I'll manage it. If not

That's the sort of clearances we're talking about here

On Sunday I removed the battery tray and various top-mounted impediments. On removing the battery tray, I found the autobox ECU, underneath said tray

What a stupid place to put and ECU! It looks terribly sad and has some corrosion on the case but electronically I know it's fine. I removed it and as it's easy to open up, I did and found it pristine inside despite it outwardly looking like it's been on the bottom of the ocean for as long as the Titanic...

I shall carefully reseal it with special electronics-grade RTV before it goes back in. The ECU could be another ticking time-bomb on a V6 as if corrosion eatts through the steel case, water will get in and goodnight Vienna

I'd pop it off, clean it up, reseal it and give it some heavy costs of lacquer just as a precaution.

This evening I drained the gearbox oil and critically examined it in a glass jar. No swarf, relatively clean and it smells just the same as new stuff so that's good at least. It smells really funny; a heavy, sweet smell with a hint of gone-off wee. It smells like no other oil I've ever sniffed, that's for sure although it does have the vaguest of similarities to the 75W/80 stuff in manual 'boxes.

Last job this evening was to remove the LH driveshaft. It came out without any fight after splitting the lower ball joint and the track-rod end. Interestingly, on the autobox, the drivesgfats can be removed without spilling any oil. The downside is that teh splines can rust in place. I shall attack the RH driveshaft tomorrow and pray I don't have the same issues as you had on your 406 Coupe John...

Another small job done was to remove the blower assembly ready to replace the short-circuit transistors in the blower speed controller. Another deckchair rearranged on the Titanic

Now the weather is more favourable, I shall try to do a bit most evenings.

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 17 Feb 2009, 21:18

good work Jim it's tropical out there

If it's less than about 12cm I'll manage i

definately, more like 4cm i am 99% sure ?

a hint of gone-off wee.

8) whatever ....

on the autobox, the drivesgfats can be removed without spilling any oil.

yep they run'em dry

I guess the diff is auto oil lubed? and would escape out under pressure otherwise ?

good work
(I have a bad pair of arms and 2 broken ankles on saturday)

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 24 Feb 2009, 12:53

Yep, the diff is splash lubricated from the main puddle of fluid in the 'box John.

Well, I now have a spare 'box sitting in my garage. It was obtained from a specialist 406 coupe breaker and as-is, unusable due to the top mount boss being smashed. At one point this weekend, my 2.1TD was a fourteen speed version. not only did it have a 4HP20 Autobox sitting in the boot but next to it was a BE3 gearbox as well

My spare autobox been sitting out in the rain for a few months and looks a bit corroded externally. The torque convertor was also out in the wet and appeared to be empty of oil but after a few hours of sitting in the back of the car, it magically became full of oil 8)

One cause for a little transiet concern was that the 'box had been sitting outside minus dipstick. I was worried as the dipstick hole is full of corrosion but a quick inspection of the oil in the box (via the Speedo Drive hole) suggests the oil is good and not contaminated by water or anything else

The 'box really bit me yesterday. I lifted out of the back of the 2.1 (suspension down on low) and intended to place it on a trolley about 6 inches below. The trolley collapsed under the weight and crushed my finger as a result. The worst one too. My right index finger. I have a nasty black nail on that finger now

Never under estimate just how heavy 88Kg is when formed into a gearbox... It is just possible to lift it solo but you need to be very careful. Next week I'm on a High-Risk Manual Handling refresher course and I reckon a 4HP20 autobox falls fairly and squarely into that category!!!

Despite hurt finger, I'll be cracking on with getting the 'box in bits over the next few evenings. First job is to drain it and for that I'll be hoisting it up on a block and tackle. In fact i think a block and tackle is going to be an indespensible tool for many activities connected with the 'box.

Hopefully more later this evening and if it all goes well, some pictures too.

ACTIVE8 · Unread post by **ACTIVE8** » 24 Feb 2009, 13:59

What with all the tight clearances, and heavy weight I assume the workers at the factory get it somewhat easier, as it's probably all installed as a drivetrain unit with engine etc from underneath on the production line!

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 24 Feb 2009, 21:04

The 'box is in bits. What follows are possibly the very first pictures of a stripped 4HP20 anywhere on the web...

I started by hoisting the 'box on a block and tackle to drain the oil from it after cleaning it up.

Whilst it was draining I removed all the ancillary items, including the transmission cooler.

I slipped off the valve block cover next

And inside the cover I found some magnets to collect swarf. The cover had been dented in the accident this donor vehicle sustained and one of the magnets was broken. Bits were stuck to the valve block.

Next to come off was the rear circular cover but first the oil pipe needed to be removed.

Then the cover to expose the front clutch drum.

I thn found the front clutch drum would move forward but was stopped by the input speed sensor. The sensor was removed.

Then the whole front clutch and input shaft could be withdrawn!

Along with the first epicyclic gearset..

The 'box could now be tipped on its back, resting on a slab of foam and the bolts holding the two halves together removed. The two halves could then be carefully separated, leaving this...

This view shows the oil pump and filter in the bellhousing half of the case.

Here is the other half containing the diff and second epicyclic gearset..

Here is a close-up of the oil filter. It has two magnets on it and the filter media looks like a piece of felt. The magnets are very "furry" with swarf.

The filter cannot be dismantled and needs replacement I reckon.

And finally, here is a picture of the front clutch and epicyclic gearset up close...

Tomorrow, I shall pull the oil pump to bits and have a look at that.

Then I shall reassemble it and then get the 'box off the car and dismantle that.

The 'box came apart tremarkably easily really but it is heavy and a block and tackle is really essential to lift it around. Most of the weight is the diff and transfer gear.

This box has done about 40K. It'll be interesting to see how my 150K 'box compares..

Unread post by **myglaren** » 24 Feb 2009, 21:13

You make it all sound so simple.

It also looks very fragile to have to heave the weight of a car around.