2.2 HDi poor cold performance

[MixerFistit]

Forgot to post this yesterday, oh well..

I struggle to pull off on steep hills in my C8 when cold. If I rev up to 1500 and bring clutch in I'll get a few metres and it'll stall unless I rev more and launch which isn't particularly good for the clutch.

It's a 2.2. I've tried blanking the egr and disconnecting and blocking the vac line.
I've ensured the the swirl actuator is functioning correctly (and holds a good vac - I can push the rod in and have it stick to my finger until I break the seal), I can also see it actuate fully when the revs pick up.
I've recently changed the very oily weak starter and the alternator which wasn't going above 13.5 (looks like a diode has melted some of the plastic on the old one)
So it's cranking and turning over great now but I still get this low power issue.
I've also tried cycling the ignition to make sure fuel is primed and I swapped the identical filter (and housing) over from my 2.0 dispatch. So don't think it's a fuel issue and I haven't noticed bubbles in the clear pipe.

Once running and warmed up after a minute, everything is fine, although it's hard to get mpg above 38 which seems a little low and driving it hard only drops it to around 30 so it's not a massive penalty for driving it hard suggesting it's not too happy driven gently.

I've got 3 6 theories
1.MAF I've driven without this and got no EML but I haven't yet tried it on a cold start- shouldn't I at least have an EML though? I need to revisit this tomorrow as today was just an experiment after disabling egr and freeing swirl actuator.

2. Cylinder wear so not very good compression until it warms up?
3. Glow plugs, light comes on for a second, but it's not really that cold. 5° C this morning and still struggled - but doesn't struggle to turn over anyway.

While typing I've gone back into lexia and:
4. Could it be the injectors?
5. Injectors? or
6. Possibly the injectors?
Looking at the attached image, are my injectors beyond salvage? I'm guessing if 1 and 4 are that far out no amount of cleaning will save them

Oh while idling cold at about 770 rpm, I can feel a tremor and if I rev gently, there's a very narrow window somewhere around 1200-1500 rpm where the engine notibly struggles. It's repeatable but such a narrow window not easy to see what rpm it happens

I've read the horror stories about stuck injectors too so that sound like some fun ahead..

So does anyone have any input with regards to the above (maybe even if the injectors are toast there's something else I can improve upon too in the mean time).
My more mechanically minded friend has just messaged to say those corrections are the worst he's seen..

[MixerFistit]

To follow up, unplugging MAF makes no difference and I do get an EML so I'll edit the above comment*

I put STP injector cleaner into 1/3 tank (not recommend I know) last night and ran it to make sure it pulled through to the injectors overnight.
Bit smokey as expected so will see how it goes.not sure if it's the crud coming out or the cleaner itself, I always get suspicious that they make it smoke so we think something is happening.

Any advice still welcome.

*I'd forgot, last time I ran without MAF, I later discovered someone had blanked some lights on the instrument cluster. Not just with tape, but with rubber potting compound and not just a blob, they filled the whole "light cone"! ABS, EML, Brake/Handbrake, pretty much any warning u can think of except the Airbag. Fortunately after clearing them all out none of those warnings were coming on so I guess some poor owner had suffered the consequences long in the past. I certainly wouldn't think the previous seller would've done it as he seemed to be someone who looked after their vehicles.

Edit
Added new image after approx 18 hours of cleaner. Not sure if it's working or other factors like engine temperature coming into play (sorry about the reflection/quality)

[MixerFistit]

No improvement in the 5 days since posting. Possibly worse after the cleaner - probably exposing the injectors?
Quite an obvious tremor on first start. This persists until some point between 30-50 C if idling and the engine visibly shakes. A hard rev once up to about 30 C will clear most of the shake at idle and it'll eventually idle smooth from then on.
Still not enough torque to pull off on a hill for at least 20s (better if left a little longer with a bit of a fast idle with the Acc pedal). Once warmed up fully, it can pull itself up the same hill in first without any Acc input.

Is anyone able to confirm my injector suspicion?

[MixerFistit]

Since a refuel, it doesn't shudder as often but is still very low on torque for the first 30-60s. Putting high loads on can sometimes trigger the shudder if it's still in the first couple of mins of idle.

Higher revs overcome the shudder and if not shuddering, it'll help speed up the passage of low torque so I can pull off on a hill. I don't know if it's getting rid of diesel drips or if it's just warming up or if it's nothing to do with injectors. I'm in a pinch where I don't want to service the injectors (if they'll even come out) without being sure there's nothing else wrong

[GiveMeABreak]

I can't really help as in the absence of any fault codes and the EGR blanking (which I assume is temporary for troubleshooting!) and the dodgy hiding of warning lights - we just don't know what has been done historically. Of course we can't support any disabling of emissions system here outside of fault finding, but I would of expected fault codes with a diagnostic if the issues are significant to flag up dash lights (despite these being deliberately hidden by a previous owner) - unless of course further 'intervention' in the engine management system has also been undertaken.....

[Rp0thejester]

As a fellow 2.2HDi driver, Don't blank off the EGR especially if your gunna put EGR Cleaner spray through. If you've tried disconnecting the MAF electrical connection and no improvement then look elsewhere. Look further along the air intake to see if any hoses aren't connected, that was an issue I had with mine. It can be hard to see as most of the engine is hidden. If you've checked fuel filter and no issue there then it must be an air issue.

[Rp0thejester]

Just a note for people who want to try EGR cleaner, the car needs to be at running temperature AND you need someone in the car to keep it at 2k revs. If white smoke is coming out the back then that's a good sign. Don't be scared when the engine peaks and drops when spraying it in.

[MixerFistit]

I can't really help as in the absence of any fault codes
.... but I would of expected fault codes with a diagnostic if the issues are significant to flag up dash lights (despite these being deliberately hidden by a previous owner) - unless of course further 'intervention' in the engine management system has also been undertaken.....

Having driven or a bit more I don't think it's temperature related (not completely anyway). I get significant shuddering on cold start as previously mentioned and this seems hand in hand with the very flat acceleration (hardly any poke even in 2nd). But, if I drive it say 200 metres, it's like it wakes up and although there may still be a slight shudder until it warms up completely the torque is there, 2nd gear and a quick tap of the accelerator and you feel the expected push into the seat.
I don't know much about injectors, I've changed the seals on a 1.6 and I've read here the 2.2 ones can be a nightmare but that's it. Other than the large corrections in lexia I have nothing else to go on other than I suppose it "feels" like the injectors may be leaking and then I have to burn off the diesel before they work properly (that's just in my minds eye, it could be complete billhooks).
I can get the EML to come on if I unplug MAF and i think I triggered it when I accidentally left the MAP off when cleaning the intercooler. Also possible when I temporarily unplugged the turbo electrovalve to see if there was a difference (limp mode at 2k rpm iirc) either way lexia stored those faults so at least they haven't been deleted from the fault table(?).
The only other info I can be fairly sure of is that the car seems happier in 4th 5th. 6th doesn't seem to give much benefit but it hasn't been on many motorways just Welsh bypasses and dual carriageways so the conditions haven't been ideal for a fair test. But the fuel penalty doesn't seem as bad if its driven hard in the lower gears, whereas driving as if there's an egg under my pedal doesn't seem to bring the expected economy.

BTW with the egr disabled I also got a lexia code but no EML. I think it was something like less air than expected . I can't remember exactly but it made sense if there wasn't exhaust being diverted back in.

[MixerFistit]

As a fellow 2.2HDi driver, Don't blank off the EGR especially if your gunna put EGR Cleaner spray through. If you've tried disconnecting the MAF electrical connection and no improvement then look elsewhere. Look further along the air intake to see if any hoses aren't connected, that was an issue I had with mine. It can be hard to see as most of the engine is hidden. If you've checked fuel filter and no issue there then it must be an air issue.

I've gone pretty extreme with the fault finding on the vac circuit. I haven't put the changes back yet (maybe one of the below changes is responsible and you'll have an answer!)
At the moment I'm running it with a blanked egr and with the vac line blocked at its branch near the pump. The electrovalve is still plugged in.
I've disabled both butterfly vac lines by putting the rubber sleeve near the brake servo. Again, both electrovalves are still plugged in. I appreciate at idle the intercooler flap can limit shudder by closing but I've tested it by pulling a syringe on it and it only limits the background vibrations (hard to describe but I would call these high frequency low amplitude that reduce when the flap closes, whereas the shudder which shakes the engine visibly would be low frequency, high amplitude and is unaffected by butterfly flap config).

So at present, the intercooler is permanently open, the warm intake is permanently shut, the egr is shut and blanked.

The turbo and swirl flaps seem to work fine. 2k+ the actuator comes down. If I take the vac line off I can manipulate the actuator and can hear the engine tone change (similar vibration change to closing/opening the butterfly flap).
I have done the same with the turbo, using a syringe to manipulate the vanes. I've also been under the turbo while someone does it and can see the actuator moving in and out. Oh and I've pulled a vacuum on all the remaining lines and when releasing the syringe I'd apparently lost nothing over a minute (syringe returning to original position).

Yes fuel filter was changed, first with my dispatch one that was not too old then I put a brand new one in and once it gets going, it's certainly happy to pull fuel through!
As for the intake side of things, the filter hasn't been charged but briefly run without filter and no difference.
Unpluggin maf doesn't seem to affect the startup symptoms. The turbo seems to spool up OK although for the brief initial period of no torque it doesn't seem to be doing much.
I can feel the intercooler to inlet pipe firm up when revved.
The only bit I haven't looked at is where the thinner pipe heads off to (it's the pipe that runs across the back of the engine close to where the vac lines go, but eitherway it doesn't seem to be leaking.

I suppose I should put all the vac bits back to stock in case something stabilises it but I don't see how anything could affect it so much on start up but then be fine shortly after other than diesel dribbling in a cylinder.
Is it possible that a seal can leak until the first few destinations warm it up enough to reseal?
But as Marc alluded to, surely a misfire fault would then be logged?

I just thought I'm not sure if the engine speed changes when cold/warm. What are your idle speeds warm/cold and what controls this? I assume it's ecu driven and temp taken from coolant sensor which seems to be working fine so maybe I'm just clutching at straws and besides, when cold, I need to rev 1500+ to smooth out the shudder

Edit
Regarding engine speed, when shuddering it's unstable between ~860 and ~910, after a short drive to clear the shudder, engine speed is a solid 820/821 at idle and that's still sub 50°C. Not sure if it goes any lower when warmer but seems irrelevant.
Could the fuel pressure sensor need attention? (blocked gauze?) I remember that affected the 2.0 but not sure what symptoms that would create

[PaulC5]

Some thing to consider, the diesel pump suction valve although this was a hot start problem.
http://citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citroe ... ion-valve/

[MixerFistit]

Thanks Paul, well worth a look.

[MixerFistit]

As a fellow 2.2HDi driver, Don't blank off the EGR

OK I'm going to target this next when I start putting pipes together because the juddering stops when the egr data stops jumping around in lexia.

EGR valve electrovalve open cycle ratio %
And
EGR throttle electrovalve open cycle ratio % (is this the warm air inlet butterfly?)

They are all over the place until the judder stops and they settle at 95%. And I mean, the judder stops instantly at the same time, I caught it when idling and looking at lexia data. So bearing in mind, I've currently taken all flaps and valves out of the equation but still have the valves plugged in, the ecu thinks it can control the valves. The only thing is, I don't know if it's the judder causing the ecu to attempt to close down the egr to keep the engine going and when the judder stops it doesn't need to anymore OR is it expecting egr gas and not getting any while I have it blanked and vac blocked and so it's throwing off the mix when it only gets fresh air.
The egr electrovalve is faulty (running hot) so maybe putting it all back together with a spare electrovalve from my dispatch will correct it. If not then at least I'll know the egr "hunting" is a symptom which may at least give more clues.

I'm curious though, other than the morals of it, what have you experienced yourself to cause you to lead with "don't blank the egr on a 2.2" ?

I've got the benefit of a very cold evening that's allowing me to warm the engine and have it cool quickly between 55 and 65 which seems to be the judder/smooth sweet spot.

[Rp0thejester]

Lol, I literally just replied but it didn't log as you posted.

[Rp0thejester]

Other than it's illegal to mess with emissions, I found I had an air issue with the pipe after the MAF sensor. It came loose as old plastic pipes will. I went back to basics, an engine only needs Air, Fuel and Compression to run. All the electrical stuff is just rubbish add ons. Fuel and compression is good, if engine is up down revs it must be an air issue. Sorted that. Was still up down on cold mornings EGR cleaner to the rescue. That cleared the crude out of the EGR enough for her to settle at roughly 850rpm on tick over. Also I believe air expands when warm so this could be a factor.

[MixerFistit]

I was attempting to go back to basics by taking it back to as bare as I could egr included. (from another post you may recall, I strongly suspect the dpf was removed by a previous owner.)
I tried unplugging the egr electrovalve this evening as was too dark and cold to connect the vac lines back up but sadly that had no effect on the shaking (I was hoping that even if unplugging raised a fault, the ecu would stop trying to operate the egr). So I'm still leaning towards something else causing the issue and the egr 'hunting' is actually just the ecu trying to stabilise the mix.
Eitherway, there must be some other value fluctuating and as you've mentioned, air is the likely candidate or maybe the FPR.

What I've now observed:
Egr electrovalve is being commanded to open and close until the shaking stops then stays open 85% at the very moment the shuddering suddenly stops. (I'm still going to reconnect when I get a chance just so the ecu can have it's expected values).
The shudder stop seems to be around 62 C (if the car is already warmish, though I'm sure I've observed lower temps although I think this maybe due to cold engine having higher idle and thus cancels some of the shudder ). If I let the car cool to around 55, the shaking comes back until temp gets to around 62 and then it's like as if an old choke engages and it's much smoother, there was no graduation of intensity tonight, it was bad shakes one second then fine the next

Revving the engine stabilises the shaking, easing off brings the shudder back at least until it warms up.
Shakes when cold seem to fluctuate the rpm by ~50 from 860 - 910 rpm. Warm shaking seems to hold the rpm at 740.

I didn't write down the measured fuel pressure but it seems to be 300 odd when cold idle and 270 ish when warm idle with the reference difference only being 2 to 10 out for the most part which may sink my FPR theory?
Are the pressure sensors the same on the 2.0 by any chance? Would be handy to be able to test with.
And lexia said I have class 2 injectors. Is there a way of confirming this is correct without pulling an injector. I don't trust any settings to be default. Someone has definitely been in there before because the climate control buttons were set to left hand drive meaning the master temp control was on the left (not exactly a major issue but proof nonetheless)

Oh I've just had a memory of a similar effect on a 1.6.
If you've ever disconnected the turbo inlet for cleaning/spraying the turbo spins fine. If u turn engine off and back on it struggles to run, Shudders and maybe even stalls but as you plug the pipe back on, the engine instantly recovers. Not saying its exactly the same but instant recovery was similar to how the shaking smoothed out tonight.