C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
I guess so. Marc or others here who know H3/C5 better would confirm.
Chris
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
I did put a load of stuff up years ago, but here's the BHI hydraulic diagram for reference: Please note this is for the 4 Cylinder Engines of the Citroen C5 X7 (MK III) - not for 6 Cylinder Engined X7s:
BHI Role
The integrated hydro-electronic block ECU controls the following components:
"b" 32-way black connector .
Allocation of the channels of the black 32 -way connector
Key
"G" To the front and rear stiffness corrector solenoid valves.
"H" To the stiffness corrector (Rear ) (Input /Output ).
"J" To the stiffness corrector (Before ) (Input /Output ).
"K" LDS fluid return from the stiffness solenoid valves.
"a" Hydraulic pump motor.
"b" Suspension ECU.
"e" The suspension inlet electrovalve (Rear ).
"f" The suspension exhaust electrovalve (Rear ).
"g" Pressure accumulator.
"j" LDS fluid reservoir.
"k" Rotating plate.
"m" Delivery valve.
"n" Overpressure valve (180 bars).
"p" Inlet electrovalve (Before ).
"q" Exhaust electrovalve (Before ).
"r" Reservoir.
As far as the rear Firmness Regulator is concerned (as I think this is what you are interested in):
Modification of the stiffness
The suspension adapts its "firm" or "soft" statuses in relation to the following parameters:
N.B.: The "sport" mode can be "forced" by pressing the "sport" mode button, or can be determined by the system in relation to the style of driving.
"A" : High pressure inlet (Integrated BHI ).
"B" : Return to the reservoir (Integrated BHI ).
(1) Rear firmness regulator.
(2) Rear stiffener regulator accumulator.
"a" Variable firmness electrovalve.
"b" Bleed screw(s) .
"c" Return spring.
"d" Hydraulic isolation slide valve.
Role
The rear firmness regulator permits modification and regulation of the firmness of the suspension on the rear axle.
Function
Operating statuses of the rear firmness regulator:
"A" : High pressure inlet (Integrated BHI ).
"B" : Return to the reservoir (Integrated BHI ).
(1) Rear firmness regulator.
(2) Rear stiffener regulator accumulator.
"a" Variable firmness electrovalve.
"b" bleed screw(s) .
"c" Hydraulic isolation slide valve.
"d" Electrovalve slide valve.
Soft status:
N.B.: The body height can be regulated in "soft status" operation.
Firm Status
"A" : High pressure inlet (Integrated BHI ).
"B" : Return to the reservoir (Integrated BHI ).
(1) Rear firmness regulator.
(2) Rear stiffener regulator accumulator.
"a" Variable firmness electrovalve.
"b" Bleed screw(s) .
"c" Hydraulic isolation slide valve.
"d" Electrovalve slide valve.
Firm status:
Allocation of the channels of the 2-way connector
BHI Role
The integrated hydro-electronic block ECU controls the following components:
- The electropump unit and its electrovalves
- The stiffness regulator electrovalves
- The vehicle ride height
- The stiffness
"b" 32-way black connector .
Allocation of the channels of the black 32 -way connector
Channel No. | Designation |
A1 | Not connected |
A2 | Body height sensor supply (Rear ) (+) |
A3 | Not connected |
A4 | Not connected |
B1 | Not connected |
B2 | Body height sensor supply (Before ) (+) |
B3 | Not connected |
B4 | Information RCD |
C1 | Not connected |
C2 | IS CAN High |
C3 | Not connected |
C4 | IS CAN Low |
D1 | Body height sensor supply (Rear ) (-) |
D2 | Not connected |
D3 | Not connected |
D4 | Not connected |
E1 | Body height sensor supply (Before ) (+) |
E2 | Line k information |
E3 | Not connected |
E4 | Body height sensor signal (Rear ) |
F1 | Not connected |
F2 | Integrated electric motor control |
F3 | Not connected |
F4 | Front body height sensor signal |
G1 | Not connected |
G2 | Front hydractive electrovalve control |
G3 | Front hydractive electrovalve supply (+) |
G4 | Rear hydractive electrovalve supply (+) |
H1 | Body earth |
H2 | Rear hydractive electrovalve control |
H3 | Not connected |
H4 | +Battery |
"G" To the front and rear stiffness corrector solenoid valves.
"H" To the stiffness corrector (Rear ) (Input /Output ).
"J" To the stiffness corrector (Before ) (Input /Output ).
"K" LDS fluid return from the stiffness solenoid valves.
"a" Hydraulic pump motor.
"b" Suspension ECU.
"e" The suspension inlet electrovalve (Rear ).
"f" The suspension exhaust electrovalve (Rear ).
"g" Pressure accumulator.
"j" LDS fluid reservoir.
"k" Rotating plate.
"m" Delivery valve.
"n" Overpressure valve (180 bars).
"p" Inlet electrovalve (Before ).
"q" Exhaust electrovalve (Before ).
"r" Reservoir.
As far as the rear Firmness Regulator is concerned (as I think this is what you are interested in):
Modification of the stiffness
The suspension adapts its "firm" or "soft" statuses in relation to the following parameters:
- Body movements (pitching, rolling)
- Cornering
- Acceleration
- Braking
- Actual longitudinal and transverse acceleration
- Hunting movement
- Detection of significant wheel travel
N.B.: The "sport" mode can be "forced" by pressing the "sport" mode button, or can be determined by the system in relation to the style of driving.
"A" : High pressure inlet (Integrated BHI ).
"B" : Return to the reservoir (Integrated BHI ).
(1) Rear firmness regulator.
(2) Rear stiffener regulator accumulator.
"a" Variable firmness electrovalve.
"b" Bleed screw(s) .
"c" Return spring.
"d" Hydraulic isolation slide valve.
Role
The rear firmness regulator permits modification and regulation of the firmness of the suspension on the rear axle.
Function
Operating statuses of the rear firmness regulator:
- Soft status: All of the suspension accumulators are in communication; the overall volume of nitrogen used is the maximum
- Firm status: The firmness regulator accumulators are isolated from the suspension; the suspension accumulators work autonomously with the suspension cylinders; the firmness is maximum and reduces body movement, roll and pitch
"A" : High pressure inlet (Integrated BHI ).
"B" : Return to the reservoir (Integrated BHI ).
(1) Rear firmness regulator.
(2) Rear stiffener regulator accumulator.
"a" Variable firmness electrovalve.
"b" bleed screw(s) .
"c" Hydraulic isolation slide valve.
"d" Electrovalve slide valve.
Soft status:
- The electrovalve is not supplied
- The electrovalve slide valve "d" moves under the effect of the integrated hydroelectronic block supply pressure
- The return to the hydraulic fluid reservoir is blocked : The pressure under the lower part of the hydraulic isolation slide valve is identical to that of the BHI
- The upper part of the hydraulic isolation slide valve is identical to that of the BHI : The slide ("c") moves under the action of the integral spring
- Flow of hydraulic fluid between the right hand and left hand suspension is possible : The hydractive 3+ sphere communicates with the suspension circuit
N.B.: The body height can be regulated in "soft status" operation.
Firm Status
"A" : High pressure inlet (Integrated BHI ).
"B" : Return to the reservoir (Integrated BHI ).
(1) Rear firmness regulator.
(2) Rear stiffener regulator accumulator.
"a" Variable firmness electrovalve.
"b" Bleed screw(s) .
"c" Hydraulic isolation slide valve.
"d" Electrovalve slide valve.
Firm status:
- The electrovalve is supplied
- The electrovalve slide valve "d" moves and frees up the return to the reservoir and blocks the hydraulic supply from the integrated hydroelectronic block
- The bottom part of the slide ("c") is at the pressure of the hydraulic fluid reservoir
- The upper part of the slide valve is under pressure from the hydractive sphere 3+
- The difference in the pressure at each end of the slide ("c") causes its movement
- In its new position the slide ("c") blocks the passage of hydraulic fluid between the RH suspension and the LH suspension
- The hydractive 3+ sphere is isolated from the suspension circuit
Allocation of the channels of the 2-way connector
Channel No. | Designation |
1 | Rear hydractive electrovalve supply (+) |
2 | Rear hydractive electrovalve control |
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Marc
Marc
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
Hi Marc and Chris,
Firstly, really sorry about such a slow response to this, had a full on hectic couple of weeks at work and haven’t really found the time to think about c5 suspension….
Secondly..,. Thanks for all the tech info so far, very valuable indeed.
Here’s where I’m at with it now,
I got through to e-crofting about that magic box, had to wait a while as he was away for a week, he was very helpful over the phone but unfortunately he thinks his magic box is not going to work on a c5 as it’s designed for xantia and xm, he thinks the electronic side of things is too different on a c5.
Here’s a couple of thoughts on where I may proceed with this…..
I’ve got a spare suspension pump with ecu, I was thinking of swapping it in and hope that the ecu will possibly do a better job than the current one. Possible problem there is that if resistors or diodes are caput it could possibly damage the new ecu and I’m back to square one….
Also, now I’ve been into the valve block and witnessed the internals I was considering possibly just removing parts of the valve so that the spheres aren’t blocked out permanently. Lots of possible problems there I guess. I’d have no sport mode at all, there’s a possibility that the car could never read the suspension correctly and constantly be trying to correct it somehow……
Could possibly cause a situation where the height goes up and wouldn’t come back down, or vice versa or could possibly lose that function altogether.
I think my fist port if call though is to get my corner spheres swapped for new units, very difficult job so far, can’t find any way of getting a tool to it to undo them, I usually use a very big pair of stilsons but there no way that going to work here, thinking a oil filter tool maybe the way forward.
Any more thoughts at all from anyone, particularly the electronic side of things, will still be greatly received
Many thanks guys
Firstly, really sorry about such a slow response to this, had a full on hectic couple of weeks at work and haven’t really found the time to think about c5 suspension….
Secondly..,. Thanks for all the tech info so far, very valuable indeed.
Here’s where I’m at with it now,
I got through to e-crofting about that magic box, had to wait a while as he was away for a week, he was very helpful over the phone but unfortunately he thinks his magic box is not going to work on a c5 as it’s designed for xantia and xm, he thinks the electronic side of things is too different on a c5.
Here’s a couple of thoughts on where I may proceed with this…..
I’ve got a spare suspension pump with ecu, I was thinking of swapping it in and hope that the ecu will possibly do a better job than the current one. Possible problem there is that if resistors or diodes are caput it could possibly damage the new ecu and I’m back to square one….
Also, now I’ve been into the valve block and witnessed the internals I was considering possibly just removing parts of the valve so that the spheres aren’t blocked out permanently. Lots of possible problems there I guess. I’d have no sport mode at all, there’s a possibility that the car could never read the suspension correctly and constantly be trying to correct it somehow……
Could possibly cause a situation where the height goes up and wouldn’t come back down, or vice versa or could possibly lose that function altogether.
I think my fist port if call though is to get my corner spheres swapped for new units, very difficult job so far, can’t find any way of getting a tool to it to undo them, I usually use a very big pair of stilsons but there no way that going to work here, thinking a oil filter tool maybe the way forward.
Any more thoughts at all from anyone, particularly the electronic side of things, will still be greatly received
Many thanks guys
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
Be aware you can't just swap out the ECUs from another BHI unless they are from an identical vehicle - as the configuration will be different.
The Hydractive 3+ on a MK III is very different from Xantia as are the electronics.
I think you need to focus on the spheres first - as let's face it they are coming on for 14 years old now. If the ride is too hard then it could very well be the corners are needing replacing / and or the rear centre spheres too. That's where I would be focussing if it was my car.
The Hydractive 3+ on a MK III is very different from Xantia as are the electronics.
I think you need to focus on the spheres first - as let's face it they are coming on for 14 years old now. If the ride is too hard then it could very well be the corners are needing replacing / and or the rear centre spheres too. That's where I would be focussing if it was my car.
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Marc
Marc
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
Yeah, spheres was my first consideration when I first got the car, did the centre ones no problem but the rear corners are a nightmare to get to, I’ll put a bit more effort into them and see if I can get them swapped.
With regard to the ecu, I recently started suspecting that as the electrical signal to the rear ev isn’t what it should be, it goes from 8v to 0v, apparently it should be 12v and 3v.
I’ll get onto the spheres first and hope that sorts it out.
Thanks again
With regard to the ecu, I recently started suspecting that as the electrical signal to the rear ev isn’t what it should be, it goes from 8v to 0v, apparently it should be 12v and 3v.
I’ll get onto the spheres first and hope that sorts it out.
Thanks again
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
Hi Dunkah, can you tell me how it turned out? I have a similar problem, but according to the description of how it works from GiveMeABreak, if EV didn't work, the car would still be in soft mode. A jammed EV would mean the car would not go up and down (if I understood correctly). If you change the center spheres, then in sport mode it disconnects and the car should be extremely hard (if the outer spheres are KO) Thanks
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
@tomassk8:
All 7 spheres in use = Normal / Comfort mode.
With 3 Centre Spheres cut out of the circuit = Sport Mode
All 7 spheres in use = Normal / Comfort mode.
With 3 Centre Spheres cut out of the circuit = Sport Mode
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Marc
Marc
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
Hi Tomassk8,
Been meaning to update this but been so busy lately just hadn’t got round to it.
Turns out it was just the spheres after all. Originally I thought it was the centre spheres, as they are the ones responsible for stiffness. New ones made no difference, along the way I discovered a couple of other issues, pretty much unrelated but it got me completely over thinking things. Just recently I finally got round to changing the corner spheres and now the car is back to its super comfortable magic carpet ride quality. So it really was as simple as new corner spheres....... they weren’t easy to get to, which was one reason I’d put it off for so long. Got em in the end though
Been meaning to update this but been so busy lately just hadn’t got round to it.
Turns out it was just the spheres after all. Originally I thought it was the centre spheres, as they are the ones responsible for stiffness. New ones made no difference, along the way I discovered a couple of other issues, pretty much unrelated but it got me completely over thinking things. Just recently I finally got round to changing the corner spheres and now the car is back to its super comfortable magic carpet ride quality. So it really was as simple as new corner spheres....... they weren’t easy to get to, which was one reason I’d put it off for so long. Got em in the end though
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
Glad to hear you've got a comfortable ride back again.
Just to clarify - the corner spheres provide the quality of the Firm ride. The system only goes Soft when the centre spheres are switched into circuit (by the electrovalves), by putting extra sphere (compressible gas) volume into the system. When they switch out (EVs go off), the ride immediately becomes Firm again.
Just to clarify - the corner spheres provide the quality of the Firm ride. The system only goes Soft when the centre spheres are switched into circuit (by the electrovalves), by putting extra sphere (compressible gas) volume into the system. When they switch out (EVs go off), the ride immediately becomes Firm again.
Chris
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
Have you screwed out the solenoid itself?
A common fault is that the plunger-thingy gets sticky from rust buildup inside.
Taking it apart and poloshing it with fine grit sandpaper seems to fix it
A common fault is that the plunger-thingy gets sticky from rust buildup inside.
Taking it apart and poloshing it with fine grit sandpaper seems to fix it
I have various repair handbooks and wiring diagrams for C5 mk1, Xantia, XM, Berlingo and C3 mk1.
I have Lexia/Diagbox (Sweden) and Servicebox/sedre
I have Lexia/Diagbox (Sweden) and Servicebox/sedre
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
But when the centre spheres switch out EVs go ON not off. When EVs go ON or the piston sticks to rust and stays ON , it will not be possible to lift and lower the car, because the LDS cannot flow through solenoid. When the piston sticks to rust and stays permanent off, the car will tilt too much in corners. Is this correct or I don't understand it correctly? Thanks for answerwhite exec wrote: ↑24 Oct 2021, 08:22 Glad to hear you've got a comfortable ride back again.
Just to clarify - the corner spheres provide the quality of the Firm ride. The system only goes Soft when the centre spheres are switched into circuit (by the electrovalves), by putting extra sphere (compressible gas) volume into the system. When they switch out (EVs go off), the ride immediately becomes Firm again.
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
The centre spheres are isolated from the hydraulic system when there is no supply to the EVs (and monitoring LEDs will be off). When the EVs are powered up, the system goes to Soft (centre spheres now in hydraulic circuit) and the LEDs will illuminate.
Lots of detail about the Hydractive systems on citroen.tramontana.co.hu - go to Suspension > Hydractive 3.
Also covers Hydractive 3+, which is what you have.
Lots of detail about the Hydractive systems on citroen.tramontana.co.hu - go to Suspension > Hydractive 3.
Also covers Hydractive 3+, which is what you have.
Chris
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
Hello I've been facing a problem second time with my electric pump ,did know how to post or I am not authorized dunno,the issue With my HA pump on C5 HDI 2.2 DC4HXE?? 2003 YEAR AFTER fitting a other one from the scrap yard start leaking lds back while is workingGiveMeABreak wrote: ↑23 Oct 2021, 20:54 @tomassk8:
All 7 spheres in use = Normal / Comfort mode.
With 3 Centre Spheres cut out of the circuit = Sport Mode
I believe the leaking point is from the tiny hole right under the cylinder ,the LDS liquid is coming bubbly air and it clears 5 ,10 minutes what should do what I did wrong and how to fix ,ps English is not my native apologies for the mistakes and pleas help mad french
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
Hi Chris, I just learned recently that it's the opposite way on Hydractive 3+. The suspension defaults to soft mode with the solenoids not energised. This is what confused me laat week testing the rear solenoid and finding it had no power yet the suspending was soft.white exec wrote: ↑31 Oct 2021, 20:52 The centre spheres are isolated from the hydraulic system when there is no supply to the EVs (and monitoring LEDs will be off). When the EVs are powered up, the system goes to Soft (centre spheres now in hydraulic circuit) and the LEDs will illuminate.
Lots of detail about the Hydractive systems on citroen.tramontana.co.hu - go to Suspension > Hydractive 3.
Also covers Hydractive 3+, which is what you have.
Graeme M
2008 C5 Exclusive Tourer 2.0 HDi
2008 C5 Exclusive Tourer 2.0 HDi
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Re: C5 hydractive 3 electrical issue
This is how it works on hydractiv H2 (XM). The center spheres (soft ride) are connected via voltage on the solenoid. It is exactly the opposite with hydractiv H3+. The car is soft all the time and when the conditions are met, the tension disconnects the center spheres to harden the car. When the solenoid goes bad (nothing happens under voltage) the car will still be soft. When the solenoid is stuck in hard mode (the solenoid does not return to normal position when the voltage is turned off), the car will not lift up and down.white exec wrote: ↑31 Oct 2021, 20:52 The centre spheres are isolated from the hydraulic system when there is no supply to the EVs (and monitoring LEDs will be off). When the EVs are powered up, the system goes to Soft (centre spheres now in hydraulic circuit) and the LEDs will illuminate.
Lots of detail about the Hydractive systems on citroen.tramontana.co.hu - go to Suspension > Hydractive 3.
Also covers Hydractive 3+, which is what you have.