synergie...couple of issues..auto gears..electrics..tapping

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

asav
Posts: 52
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 20:55

synergie...couple of issues..auto gears..electrics..tapping

Post by asav »

Hi all,

Just bought a 2001 synergie 2.0L automatic. (love it!)

3 times yesterday whilst driving the display on the dashboard indicating what the gears are doing NPDR etc, started flashing rather than just highlighting D and it appeared to be stuck in 2nd, I turned off the engine and restarted and this seems to reset it all to normal...any ideas?

dull/soft tapping noise coming from the engine...checked it with a mechanic who recons its one of the lifters for the tappets..and has recommended i flush the engine (which i'm gonna attempt today)...went to a second mechanic who said it could be one of the fuel injectors???

also recently removed the dash to replace some bulbs, but seem to have a small issue with the electrics...clock comes on when it feels like it and also can't access the trip computer as when i press the windscreen stork nothing happens...lose wire? or stork replacement?


manythanks
Al
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49286
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 6099

Post by CitroJim »

Hi Asav and welcome to the forum :D

I guess the car has the AL4 Autobox. I reckon what is happening is that it's intermittently falling into emergency hydraulic-only mode as a result of a fault or faults being logged in the ECU. It's a sort of "limp-home" mode that allows only 3rd and reverse gears to be selected and it flashes the display to let you know.

Often, the reason for this is the oil wear counter tripping over its threshold. Basically, a counter increments based on a special formula to indicate when the oil requires changing.

The only way to interrogate the ECU is by the use of a Lexia Diagnostic session and using this tool is the only way to clear faults or reset the oil counter.

In any case, it is a good idea to change the gearbox oil but note that there is a special procedure to do this and the temperature of the oil must be at 60 degrees exactly to ensure an accurate measurement of the level is made. Also be aware you must only use Esso LT71141 oil and NOTHING else and especially not Dexron. LT71141 is expensive and we on here call it liquid gold as it looks like gold and costs much the same :twisted:

If you're anywhere near me, I can perform a Lexia diagnosis for you.

At idle, the injectors do make quite a racket. More of a ticking noise though. Again a Lexia Diagnosis can exercise the injectors to prove that. It could well be a hydraulic tappet and an oil change for good quality oil of the right grade might silence it. I personally don't recommend an engine flush. Two oil changes in quick succession will do the trick just as well and it's safer to do it that way.

Sounds like you've not quite got the dash back in properly after removing it and have a trapped cable or a partially dislodged plug and socket somewhere under there.
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Sid_the_Squid
Posts: 590
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 15:35
x 2

Post by Sid_the_Squid »

You can get that issue if the gear selector is left slightly between gears when trying to accelerate, happed on mine before, gearbox gets confused about which gear you want to select, so flashes the last known gear, if you try to accelerate whilst in this confused state it will revert to 'limp home mode'.
In any case, it is a good idea to change the gearbox oil
I'm 100% with Jim on this one, having seen the state of the oil which came out of my AL4 box after 90k miles with no oil change, I would recommend chaining the box oil as soon as possible really, don't believe any of this 'sealed for life' nonsense.
Like Jim says its liquid gold this stuff, in both looks and price ;), can be bought from any Citroen parts dept about £15 for 2 liters you need just over 3 liters. I believe the part number is 9736 22 On the bottle it says "Esso ATF 4HP20 AL4".
Its a fairly easy job in an AL4, done it 3 times in the past 2 months. here is a handy link http://www.eastment.net/forum/al4%20oil%20change.pdf You need a size 19 socket and a size 27 socket.

If it is injector tick, I'd not be to worried, injectors in my 1.8 have ticked from the day I bought the car (1.5 years ago).

Oh and when buying the oil ask for a discount, they might say no, but I've found they usually say yes :)
Gone to the dark side.

Past Citroens
'99 Xantia HDi Exclusive
'99 Xantia 3.0 V6 Exclusive (Green Goblin)
'02 C5 Hdi 110 LX Estate
'98 Xantia 1.8 sx auto with LPG
'00 Xantia Hdi (110) forte
'97 Xantia 1.9D sx
'93 Xantia 1.9D lx (my first) R.I.P
asav
Posts: 52
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 20:55

Post by asav »

Hi Citro + Sid..many thanks for your assistance.

I'm in essex so a bit far for the diagnostic..shame.

an Update..(not great!) attempted the engine flush...but not having any knowledge/haines manual, I novicely managed to remove the slump plug for the gearbox oil :oops: about a pint came out, lovely and clean though :D

Have had the dash out again a couple of times though cannot find any trapped/loose wiring re the trip/clock..so??..also this issue existed prior to me intially removing the dash to change bulbs.

The gear trouble re going into emergenc mode has happened a couple of times again, happens around town rather than on long journeys..could be that it slips between gears but tried recreating it and couldn't??

will see what happens

ta all
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49286
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 6099

Post by CitroJim »

Sid, that's a very good point about the gear selector switch. It'll give itself away by logging a "Gear Coherence" fault.

It will be worth initially checking the switch is well mounted and has not come loose. The switch is located on top of the gearbox just below the selector cable balljoint and under a cover over the gearbox selector shaft.

I'm not sure how serviceable this switch is but it's not in a particularly friendly place and it may be worth giving it a clean.

It will also be well worth checking the selector cable is tight on the gearbox shaft and its adjustment is correct in that when P is selected the gearbox really is right over into P and not nearly there or halfway between P and R...

EDIT: If you accidentially let some oil out of the gearbox, it is critical you top it up soonest. they don't like running low on oil and equally they don't like too much either...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
asav
Posts: 52
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 20:55

Post by asav »

yeap on the gearbox oil..gonna source some and top it up asap.


sounds like ME checking the selector switch may be out of the question if its that awkward to get to.....regarding the adjustment on the gearbox shaft??..i do notice that sometimes rather than straight changes...1-2 2-3 it sort of changes does half changes here and there????

ta
Sid_the_Squid
Posts: 590
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 15:35
x 2

Post by Sid_the_Squid »

Don't worry about 'half changes' its the clever gearbox torque converter manipulating the amount of power transferred, that’s how sometimes the engine revs will remain constant whilst the cars speed increases, its the torque converter gradually reducing slip until it reaches full lockup or changes gear.

When you say 'engine flush' are you referring to an engine oil change using a flushing supplement? I see you mentioned the gearbox oil sump plug which sounds confusing, if you did drain some from the gearbox oil which plug did you undo the 19mm or the 27mm as the pdf link shows its a plug within a plug.

Which ever oil was removed gearbox or engine, you must now replace what has been lost as neither like to run low. If its engine oil dead simple to top up, gearbox oil slightly harder, I don't know what your engine bay looks like but if its anything like the xantias you will need to remove the airbox to access the filler point, its a square section socket plug just under the gear selector mechanism (put the car into 2 gear for easier access to the plug). Or if your not comfortable with this take to a trusted garage and have them top-up but you must make sure its a knowledgeable one so they don't put the dreaded dexron in. As said in previous post the genuine oil is available from Citroen part, i would guess Peugeot parts dept as well, and also BMW parts, but I have no idea of the pug or bmw part numbers.
Gone to the dark side.

Past Citroens
'99 Xantia HDi Exclusive
'99 Xantia 3.0 V6 Exclusive (Green Goblin)
'02 C5 Hdi 110 LX Estate
'98 Xantia 1.8 sx auto with LPG
'00 Xantia Hdi (110) forte
'97 Xantia 1.9D sx
'93 Xantia 1.9D lx (my first) R.I.P
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49286
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 6099

Post by CitroJim »

One quick and approximate method of checking the alighment of the switch and cable is to observe the reversing lights as these are operated from the same switch.
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
asav
Posts: 52
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 20:55

Post by asav »

I removed the gearbox sump...which was a 19mm there dosn't appear to be a plug within a plug, just a straight bolt into the housing...

I was going to drain the engine oil then use flush then refill..though it obviously didn't happen that way so ended up just draining the oil and replacing. easy...though as you say the gearbox oil refill isn't as accessible...will probably have to remove the airbox? hope its straight forward.


thanks you've both been a great help....and am sure will be posting more (for help) in the near future.
Sid_the_Squid
Posts: 590
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 15:35
x 2

Post by Sid_the_Squid »

which was a 19mm there dosn't appear to be a plug within a plug, just a straight bolt into the housing...
asav viewing the PDF file in the link in one of my early posts, does your drain plug look like the one illustrated, theres a 19mm hex inside a 27mm hex?

The PDF also shows the filler hole, in the picture, the top of the picture would be the front of the car.. you should be able to see the top of the gearbox (as shown) clearly with the airbox removed.

Could it be another gearbox than an AL4?? anyone know?
Gone to the dark side.

Past Citroens
'99 Xantia HDi Exclusive
'99 Xantia 3.0 V6 Exclusive (Green Goblin)
'02 C5 Hdi 110 LX Estate
'98 Xantia 1.8 sx auto with LPG
'00 Xantia Hdi (110) forte
'97 Xantia 1.9D sx
'93 Xantia 1.9D lx (my first) R.I.P
asav
Posts: 52
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 20:55

Post by asav »

Sid, forgive me if i'm totally wrong (which might well be the case!) I looked at the PDF and went to myself yeap thats what I removed, though I really don't recall there being a 27mm that the 19mm went into, I'd need to take another look to make sure but me heads tellin me there wasn't? especially due to the fact that initially i thought i was draining the engine...I did have a good look to see what else i needed to undo when only a small amount of oil come out...so if there was a 27mm I would have probably tried undoing it!! since i thought i was on the engine!

Will be removing the airbox asap and am sure the filler will be there...failing that and failing me having a AL4..would be nice to know what I got?
Sid_the_Squid
Posts: 590
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 15:35
x 2

Post by Sid_the_Squid »

Have not found out of sure yet, but according to this website its an AL4, and you can see the cost of replacement box.
http://www.automatic-gearbox.co.uk/gear ... D7EE37604B
I'll dig some more today, however AFAIK Citroen only use the MB3/AL4/4HP20 boxes, during the years the synergie was made, your engine is to big for an MB3 and to small for a 4HP20.

The 27mm hex is quite flat but you should see if you know what your looking for. Probably luck you did not find the 27mm its the total drain plug on the gearbox, the 19mm is used to set the oil level (only be done with engine running). Somewhere on the gearbox there should be a metal plaque indicating what kind of gearbox it is, although on the AL4 it seems like it might be very hard to see (see link below)

Here is some more AL4 information. http://www.scribd.com/doc/6338026/AL4-T ... todown=pdf
Gone to the dark side.

Past Citroens
'99 Xantia HDi Exclusive
'99 Xantia 3.0 V6 Exclusive (Green Goblin)
'02 C5 Hdi 110 LX Estate
'98 Xantia 1.8 sx auto with LPG
'00 Xantia Hdi (110) forte
'97 Xantia 1.9D sx
'93 Xantia 1.9D lx (my first) R.I.P
asav
Posts: 52
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 20:55

Post by asav »

had a quick look whilst in b'n'q's carpark this mornin...there is the 27mm...yeap good job i missed it!!...removed the airbox just to have a quick look for filler...couldn't see it, directly underneath the airbox is somesort of greyish pastic casing about 3x5x2 inches..didn't even attempt to move that at the time..though looked around it as best as i could whilst at b'n'q..couldn't see filler??

also 60 degrees for gear oil change/refill how do i know the oil temp???
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49286
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 6099

Post by CitroJim »

asav wrote: also 60 degrees for gear oil change/refill how do i know the oil temp???
Only really by using the diagnostics :( I guess you could take a fair shot by using one of these infra-red thermometer guns on the case.

Otherwise carefully measure what drains out and refill the same amount but of course that won't tell you exactly if the level was wrong in the first place :?

In any case, the diagnostics is required to reset the oil wear counter.

Did you see the cost of a new gearbox :shock: :shock: Not so different to the cost of a new one for my V6 :twisted:
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Sid_the_Squid
Posts: 590
Joined: 21 Apr 2009, 15:35
x 2

Post by Sid_the_Squid »

I've done a couple of oil changes by just simply running the engine until the box case is warm~hot to touch. However there may be quite a difference in oil level between cold-ish and 60C, I say may because initial findings suggest >500cc however I think I made a mistake and its probably closer to 200cc.

You need to find someone with a Lexia/Proxia its a dealers tool which can get live data from the car, such as gearbox oil temp. There are a few members with these tools who will probably help you out. Jim has been a massive help to me with many things including Lexia readings.
If you cant get access to any lexia's I think its worth right now putting back in the amount of oil which you just drained. Until such time as a full change can be attempted.

Like the 27mm socket, the filler hole is hard to see if your not exactly sure where to look, if you look at fig3 in the pdf (sorry its I've got no pictures) the filler hole is on the top of the gearbox, towards the rear of the engine bay, it will be under the gear selector arm (not pictured), its the only bolt with a square indent*. Sorry if my description was misleading its not directly under the Airbox, but you do need to remove the airbox to see.

I love Google, I just found someones photobucket album with some pictures of an AL4, its not the greatest shots, but might help you.
http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u171 ... roen%20C5/

*sorry don't know the technical term
Gone to the dark side.

Past Citroens
'99 Xantia HDi Exclusive
'99 Xantia 3.0 V6 Exclusive (Green Goblin)
'02 C5 Hdi 110 LX Estate
'98 Xantia 1.8 sx auto with LPG
'00 Xantia Hdi (110) forte
'97 Xantia 1.9D sx
'93 Xantia 1.9D lx (my first) R.I.P