Got it up and running but all spheres go up to 80 bar with no cut out.
I'm using a drill to pump and the more I pump the higher the pressure.
Obviously there's something wrong here.
Sphere pressure tester
Moderator: RichardW
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bernie
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Kowalski
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What you're trying to do is find out what pressure is INITIALLY in the sphere, i.e. you pump a little bit until you're JUST putting LHM into the sphere and that is its inital pressure. Getting all of your hydraulics bled out so there is no compressable air in the system will make it easier.
The technique will be to bleed the system out, then to add a little pressure so it registers on the gauge.
The technique will be to bleed the system out, then to add a little pressure so it registers on the gauge.
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Mandrake
- Posts: 8618
- Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
- x 666
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kowalski</i>
What you're trying to do is find out what pressure is INITIALLY in the sphere, i.e. you pump a little bit until you're JUST putting LHM into the sphere and that is its inital pressure. Getting all of your hydraulics bled out so there is no compressable air in the system will make it easier.
The technique will be to bleed the system out, then to add a little pressure so it registers on the gauge.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I find an easier way to get an accurate reading is to pump it up to a pressure somewhat higher than you're expecting the sphere to be, and then open the bleed screw SLIGHTLY so that the pressure drops very slowly.
Watch the guage fall, and when it reaches the charged pressure of the sphere the pressure will SUDDENLY drop to zero. The pressure it read just before it dropped to zero is the actual pressure.
As the pressure bleeds out the diaphram in the sphere moves towards the bottom, when it reaches the bottom and can move no further, suddenly there is no more compressible medium to follow up the oil loss and the pressure instantly drops to nothing.
It needs to be done fairly slowly on spheres with damper valves, otherwise you will get an inaccurate reading.
Regards,
Simon
What you're trying to do is find out what pressure is INITIALLY in the sphere, i.e. you pump a little bit until you're JUST putting LHM into the sphere and that is its inital pressure. Getting all of your hydraulics bled out so there is no compressable air in the system will make it easier.
The technique will be to bleed the system out, then to add a little pressure so it registers on the gauge.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I find an easier way to get an accurate reading is to pump it up to a pressure somewhat higher than you're expecting the sphere to be, and then open the bleed screw SLIGHTLY so that the pressure drops very slowly.
Watch the guage fall, and when it reaches the charged pressure of the sphere the pressure will SUDDENLY drop to zero. The pressure it read just before it dropped to zero is the actual pressure.
As the pressure bleeds out the diaphram in the sphere moves towards the bottom, when it reaches the bottom and can move no further, suddenly there is no more compressible medium to follow up the oil loss and the pressure instantly drops to nothing.
It needs to be done fairly slowly on spheres with damper valves, otherwise you will get an inaccurate reading.
Regards,
Simon
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DoubleChevron
- Posts: 622
- Joined: 22 Sep 2003, 18:06
Yeah,
the first sphere I tested had that problem... ie: you would have to spin the pump for ages, then suddenly the pressure would rapidly rise until it was off the guage..
What is happening is you have a 'dead' sphere with no pressure in it, so your turning the pump for ages (to fill the sphere with LHM), once the sphere is full of LHM then the pressure will build rapidy to the pressure cuttout.
If you pull one of the front sphere's off you car (that you know has gas in them), screw it on the regualtor, with a socket wrench give the pump about 5 turns with the accumulator screw open (to clear the air out), then another 5turns of the pump should have the pump rapidly upto sphere pressure, if you continue to power the pump with something like a drill, eventually you will fill the reseviour capabilites of the sphere and the sphere pressure will once again rise rapidly the accumulator cutout.
I can take a short video of me using mine tester if that helps.
seeya,
Shane L.
the first sphere I tested had that problem... ie: you would have to spin the pump for ages, then suddenly the pressure would rapidly rise until it was off the guage..
What is happening is you have a 'dead' sphere with no pressure in it, so your turning the pump for ages (to fill the sphere with LHM), once the sphere is full of LHM then the pressure will build rapidy to the pressure cuttout.
If you pull one of the front sphere's off you car (that you know has gas in them), screw it on the regualtor, with a socket wrench give the pump about 5 turns with the accumulator screw open (to clear the air out), then another 5turns of the pump should have the pump rapidly upto sphere pressure, if you continue to power the pump with something like a drill, eventually you will fill the reseviour capabilites of the sphere and the sphere pressure will once again rise rapidly the accumulator cutout.
I can take a short video of me using mine tester if that helps.
seeya,
Shane L.
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bernie
- Posts: 882
- Joined: 10 Apr 2001, 02:25
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DoubleChevron</i>
I can take a short video of me using mine tester if that helps.
seeya,
Shane L.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That would be brilliant, Shane thanks
I can take a short video of me using mine tester if that helps.
seeya,
Shane L.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That would be brilliant, Shane thanks
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DoubleChevron
- Posts: 622
- Joined: 22 Sep 2003, 18:06
Finally here we go...
Alrighty, grab the tester:
Using the tester (warning 3meg in size):
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/shane/sphere ... esting.AVI
The pressure shown:
The sphere pressure stamped under the filler plug:
If I continue to crank the pump for a further 20 or 30seconds I may see a no 2or3 bars .... (not important really). If I continue to turn the pump for several minutes (or 20+seconds with a drill) I will fill the reseviour capabilities of the sphere, and the pressure will rise to regulator cutout.
This sphere measures approx 42bar (give or take 2bar), it should be 75bar according to the pressure stamped under the filler plug. So it does need regassing.
seeya,
Shane L.
Alrighty, grab the tester:
Using the tester (warning 3meg in size):
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/shane/sphere ... esting.AVI
The pressure shown:
The sphere pressure stamped under the filler plug:
If I continue to crank the pump for a further 20 or 30seconds I may see a no 2or3 bars .... (not important really). If I continue to turn the pump for several minutes (or 20+seconds with a drill) I will fill the reseviour capabilities of the sphere, and the pressure will rise to regulator cutout.
This sphere measures approx 42bar (give or take 2bar), it should be 75bar according to the pressure stamped under the filler plug. So it does need regassing.
seeya,
Shane L.
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bernie
- Posts: 882
- Joined: 10 Apr 2001, 02:25
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bernie
- Posts: 882
- Joined: 10 Apr 2001, 02:25
Been severe sphere testing today[:D]
Just the fronts for now
Results, my original spheres are all ok apart from the main accumulator which was down to 30 bar.
The four replacement GSF spheres were tested ok apart from the front HA one which was down. (I'll take it back for a replacement)
So I've fitted back the original 3 spheres.
Now I've still got hard suspension so as I've eliminated the spheres and I've got an LED ON most of the time telling me it's in soft mode, something else is wrong.
I've come to the conclusion the actual HA valve only switches when first activated then returns to shut (hard mode) instead of STAYING activated.
Now whether this is the HA valve faulty or the HA solenoid not holding it open(soft mode) is the next thing to estabish.
Any ideas on a test?
Just the fronts for now
Results, my original spheres are all ok apart from the main accumulator which was down to 30 bar.
The four replacement GSF spheres were tested ok apart from the front HA one which was down. (I'll take it back for a replacement)
So I've fitted back the original 3 spheres.
Now I've still got hard suspension so as I've eliminated the spheres and I've got an LED ON most of the time telling me it's in soft mode, something else is wrong.
I've come to the conclusion the actual HA valve only switches when first activated then returns to shut (hard mode) instead of STAYING activated.
Now whether this is the HA valve faulty or the HA solenoid not holding it open(soft mode) is the next thing to estabish.
Any ideas on a test?
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tomsheppard
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NiSk
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bernie
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Mandrake
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- Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
- x 666
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bernie</i>
Been severe sphere testing today[:D]
Just the fronts for now
Results, my original spheres are all ok apart from the main accumulator which was down to 30 bar.
The four replacement GSF spheres were tested ok apart from the front HA one which was down. (I'll take it back for a replacement)
So I've fitted back the original 3 spheres.
Now I've still got hard suspension so as I've eliminated the spheres and I've got an LED ON most of the time telling me it's in soft mode, something else is wrong.
I've come to the conclusion the actual HA valve only switches when first activated then returns to shut (hard mode) instead of STAYING activated.
Now whether this is the HA valve faulty or the HA solenoid not holding it open(soft mode) is the next thing to estabish.
Any ideas on a test?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Silly question maybe,
But how is it in a bounce test now in the soft mode at the front ?
Open the bonnet, leave the engine running, let the height stabalize, and it should be in soft mode. Try a bounce test at the front, and it should be quite soft, an average weight person should be able to compress it down several inches.
Now unplug the solenoid feed plug at the base of the Hydractive valve (just squeeze the wire clip inwards and push the plug down) and it should immediately switch into hard mode. (At the back too, as the computer detects a solenoid "fault" and puts the back into hard mode too)
There should be a very obvious change in stiffness, it should be much stiffer now by at least a factor of two to one.
If you plug this plug back in, it takes 30+ seconds for the computer to realise the "fault" has cleared, and switch back to soft mode. (The engine is running this whole time)
Ok, now diagnosing the results of that:
If the hydractive centre sphere is gassed up and there was NO change in stiffness in the bounce test and yet your LED test was ok, that strongly points to a hydraulic/mechanical fault in the hydractive valve itself. (I remember seeing a thread on here about someone disassembling their valve and fixing it, see if you can dig it up with a search)
On the other hand if there was an obvious change in stiffness during this bounce test (and given that you've already confirmed the computer is ok) then the hard ride can really only be two other things:
1) Front struts need greasing.
I can't over-emphasize how important to the ride quality greasing the front struts is. My car showed none of the normal signs of sticky front struts - no creaks or groans, height raised and lowered smoothly without lurching, and yet I was unhappy with the ride at the front - jiggly and fidgety on suburban streets, almost to the point of harshness, certainly very un-Citroen like.
The difference in ride quality after doing the greasing was IMMEDIATELY obvious before I had even got 50 metres down the road. 90% of the harshness was gone, and also most of the fidgety behaviour. I wouldn't say it's perfect yet, but wow, what a difference.
I don't know how other people do the greasing, but I tried to do a pretty thorough job - gaiters down, height right up (car protected against dropping by axle stands any time I had my hands in the wheel arche) apply liberal amounts of Lithium L2 grease to the shiny steel shaft by hand, remove stands, lower suspension completely, (to squeeze grease into the strut) raise height again, re-chock with axle stands, repeat 3 more times. (Then wipe excess grease off the gaiter and everything else except the steel shaft before refitting the gaiter)
I think its necessary to do several grease, down, up cycles, as only a small amount of the grease finds its way into the strut each time due to the close tolerances of the bush, and there is lots of space inside the strut that needs grease for it to be fully effective.
Also I recommend the Lithium L2 grease over other types of grease for this job as (a) its compatible with LHM and LHM type seals and (b) has the right consistency for the job and mixes well with LHM. Some other types of grease may or may not give as good results.
In severe cases redoing the whole job a few weeks later might even be of benefit to help work the grease even further down into the strut. (I may try this soon)
2) Rear suspension is not right.
I initially had a punctured rear hydractive sphere and when I replaced it, I was simply AMAZED at how much the perceived ride quality improved despite the fact that I was sitting in the front of the car, and that the front suspension (greasing etc) had still not been done at that point. The rear suspension plays a BIG role in the overall perception of ride, so I look forward to hearing about your efforts to pressure test the rear spheres...
Regards,
Simon
Been severe sphere testing today[:D]
Just the fronts for now
Results, my original spheres are all ok apart from the main accumulator which was down to 30 bar.
The four replacement GSF spheres were tested ok apart from the front HA one which was down. (I'll take it back for a replacement)
So I've fitted back the original 3 spheres.
Now I've still got hard suspension so as I've eliminated the spheres and I've got an LED ON most of the time telling me it's in soft mode, something else is wrong.
I've come to the conclusion the actual HA valve only switches when first activated then returns to shut (hard mode) instead of STAYING activated.
Now whether this is the HA valve faulty or the HA solenoid not holding it open(soft mode) is the next thing to estabish.
Any ideas on a test?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Silly question maybe,
But how is it in a bounce test now in the soft mode at the front ?
Open the bonnet, leave the engine running, let the height stabalize, and it should be in soft mode. Try a bounce test at the front, and it should be quite soft, an average weight person should be able to compress it down several inches.
Now unplug the solenoid feed plug at the base of the Hydractive valve (just squeeze the wire clip inwards and push the plug down) and it should immediately switch into hard mode. (At the back too, as the computer detects a solenoid "fault" and puts the back into hard mode too)
There should be a very obvious change in stiffness, it should be much stiffer now by at least a factor of two to one.
If you plug this plug back in, it takes 30+ seconds for the computer to realise the "fault" has cleared, and switch back to soft mode. (The engine is running this whole time)
Ok, now diagnosing the results of that:
If the hydractive centre sphere is gassed up and there was NO change in stiffness in the bounce test and yet your LED test was ok, that strongly points to a hydraulic/mechanical fault in the hydractive valve itself. (I remember seeing a thread on here about someone disassembling their valve and fixing it, see if you can dig it up with a search)
On the other hand if there was an obvious change in stiffness during this bounce test (and given that you've already confirmed the computer is ok) then the hard ride can really only be two other things:
1) Front struts need greasing.
I can't over-emphasize how important to the ride quality greasing the front struts is. My car showed none of the normal signs of sticky front struts - no creaks or groans, height raised and lowered smoothly without lurching, and yet I was unhappy with the ride at the front - jiggly and fidgety on suburban streets, almost to the point of harshness, certainly very un-Citroen like.
The difference in ride quality after doing the greasing was IMMEDIATELY obvious before I had even got 50 metres down the road. 90% of the harshness was gone, and also most of the fidgety behaviour. I wouldn't say it's perfect yet, but wow, what a difference.
I don't know how other people do the greasing, but I tried to do a pretty thorough job - gaiters down, height right up (car protected against dropping by axle stands any time I had my hands in the wheel arche) apply liberal amounts of Lithium L2 grease to the shiny steel shaft by hand, remove stands, lower suspension completely, (to squeeze grease into the strut) raise height again, re-chock with axle stands, repeat 3 more times. (Then wipe excess grease off the gaiter and everything else except the steel shaft before refitting the gaiter)
I think its necessary to do several grease, down, up cycles, as only a small amount of the grease finds its way into the strut each time due to the close tolerances of the bush, and there is lots of space inside the strut that needs grease for it to be fully effective.
Also I recommend the Lithium L2 grease over other types of grease for this job as (a) its compatible with LHM and LHM type seals and (b) has the right consistency for the job and mixes well with LHM. Some other types of grease may or may not give as good results.
In severe cases redoing the whole job a few weeks later might even be of benefit to help work the grease even further down into the strut. (I may try this soon)
2) Rear suspension is not right.
I initially had a punctured rear hydractive sphere and when I replaced it, I was simply AMAZED at how much the perceived ride quality improved despite the fact that I was sitting in the front of the car, and that the front suspension (greasing etc) had still not been done at that point. The rear suspension plays a BIG role in the overall perception of ride, so I look forward to hearing about your efforts to pressure test the rear spheres...
Regards,
Simon
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bernie
- Posts: 882
- Joined: 10 Apr 2001, 02:25
Just been testing the rear spheres for pressure.
Something happened that gives creedence to my theory that the HA valve is NOT holding open (soft mode)
With engine running, door open, lower suspension to bottom and allow engine 3 minutes to empty the HA spheres. HA sphere at this point is tight.
Turn off engine and back moves up.
Switch ignition on and off a few times and back goes down, try again and back goes down on bump stops. HA sphere at this point is loose.
Now this points to the HA valve ONLY opening to the HA sphere when first energized and then closing. Obviously it SHOULD stay open whilst in soft mode.
Got any ideas for a test on the solenoid/valve combination anyone?
Something happened that gives creedence to my theory that the HA valve is NOT holding open (soft mode)
With engine running, door open, lower suspension to bottom and allow engine 3 minutes to empty the HA spheres. HA sphere at this point is tight.
Turn off engine and back moves up.
Switch ignition on and off a few times and back goes down, try again and back goes down on bump stops. HA sphere at this point is loose.
Now this points to the HA valve ONLY opening to the HA sphere when first energized and then closing. Obviously it SHOULD stay open whilst in soft mode.
Got any ideas for a test on the solenoid/valve combination anyone?
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G4EIY
- Posts: 186
- Joined: 04 Jun 2003, 18:20
Hi Folks,
I am 98% there, but am having problems getting the adapter/s from the Citroen pipe (About 4.5mm o/d), to the gauge (1/4" BSP rear entry fitting).
I have been to one outlet and phoned others, but all have drawn blanks.
Does any one have the makers and part numbers of the adapters required, so that I can order them.
Cheers Brian
I am 98% there, but am having problems getting the adapter/s from the Citroen pipe (About 4.5mm o/d), to the gauge (1/4" BSP rear entry fitting).
I have been to one outlet and phoned others, but all have drawn blanks.
Does any one have the makers and part numbers of the adapters required, so that I can order them.
Cheers Brian