Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

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Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

Post by Ben82 »

Well I've posted about this before I believe in Simon's mammoth thread :)

Back then I didn't really have much of a clue whether it was an engine or gearbox noise, or what really triggered it. It's gone on for about 10 months now, back then I put it down to a characteristic of the car or so. And recently, I've been using the Sequential mode a lot, which has given me a bit of an insight as to what conditions it occurs in.

My findings are thus:

1) Happens around 1500 rpm only.
2) Seems to happen only in 2nd and 4th gear (2nd is generally briefly around 1600rpm, 4th is ~1400 - ~1600rpm).
3) Generally if I'm accelerating normally it won't occur, due to the up gear changes generally avoiding those rpm ranges. So it normally happens when accelerating after slowing down.
4) If I take my foot off the accelerator, and press it down (even by a small amount) at those rpms in those gears, I'll feel a slight kick, the same kind of one felt when the gearbox is auto-downshifting from 2nd to 1st (and you can hear the same sort of knock). I can lift my foot off and press it again, and it'll do it again.

Since it's gear related, I don't think it's the engine that's "grumbling".

I also used my iPhone yesterday afternoon to record a journey (mainly due to the day before having some pillock pull out from a petrol station right in front of me so had to step on the anchors, and give a good long blast of the horn, + other similar horn related incidents has made me feel like maybe I should record journeys for insurance sake), nevertheless hopefully manages to help you guys hear the issue:


Times of when it happens:
00:32 (can't hear too well)
03:14
09:30 (probably the most pronounced one that you can hear, whilst accelerating out of the corner, just before going over the gravel :) )

And if you get bored, you can see how many French cars you can spot :D

Have almost got everything I need for the gearbox oil change, just need a drainpan for taking the waste stuff down the tip.. and the confidence to it :lol: Though I'm uncertain that this would help due to it only happening within a tight rpm range?

Car has done shy of 129,000km (so just over 80,000 miles)

Any ideas? :)
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Re: Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

Post by Mandrake »

Hi Ben,

Really hard to hear or identify the noise you're talking about, even listening with in-ear earphones as there's too much background noise. I think I can hear it at 9:30 though.

From your description and what little I can hear in the recording it does sound like the noise mine was making. Mine was worst at 1500 rpm as well, during acceleration, except for me it was worst in 3rd, although when it got worse later on it did occasionally do it in 4th and 2nd as well. As it got worse the rpm range over which it did it extended to about 1200 to 1800 rpm, and it went from only happening at heavy throttle to happening at a relatively light throttle.

The only forum member who heard mine when it was making its groaning noise was RichardW who said he could also feel it through the floor on the left hand side, perhaps he might recognise the noise in your recording.

If it is the same issue as mine then its the torque converter lockup clutch shuddering due to worn out or contaminated oil having the wrong frictional characteristics, so I would go ahead with a gearbox oil change. For mine it took two spaced oil changes before I saw any improvement in symptoms then another two changes to eliminate the symptoms entirely, so don't worry if a single change doesn't seem to do much, especially if the oil that comes out is really dirty.

It's also possible that the noise could be due to the oil level being too low or too high, so make sure you carefully follow the procedure for checking the oil level and make sure the ground is perfectly level when doing so.

I'd be interested to see what comments others have regarding the noise you're hearing because I seem to be almost the only person on the forum to have experienced this issue amongst many V6 owners...
Simon

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Re: Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Well, Simon probably has the most recent experience of this problem. If nothing else, an oil change won't hurt (if you do it correctly), and is likely to help.

I thought I might have heard the noise at a couple of other points, but it is probably my imagination. Still, I have quite good speakers.
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Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

Post by Ben82 »

Thanks guys, Simon, yeah I know even the iPhone 4 can't seem to pick up the noise too well, might try the wife's sgs2. As James has said there are other points where it does sound like it does it (and they probably were too), however for me these were fairly indistinguishable from the other noise on the recording, so didn't want to confuse anyone by pointing those out, and having more "certainly can't hear anything different to the other noises" :)

Largest concern with the gearbox oil change is screwing something up and leaving the car in an undrivable state.. I was hoping by now that we'd have a 2nd C5 V6 (but on a ML5T) so the wife can start learning with me, and also means I can work on either car knowing that the other is there in case of something going wrong. My "alone" mechanic experience has only gone as far as just replacing the Oil pressure switch, and the carbon canister electrovalve, so am a bit nervous about fiddling round with a very important piece of the car :)

I have had a bit of a plan of action for doing it for some time, mainly:
1) try topping up with ~100ml ATF ( yes Jim LT71141 - have 10l of the stuff in the basement :) ), this is to ensure my delivery system works.
2) Get gearbox up to ~60C
3) Drain into measuring jugs - have 2x3l ones.
4) Top up with amount drained of new oil.
5) Get gearbox up to ~60C again
6) Check level.

Going by what you say Simon about potentially too low (I'm doubting too high, for the same reason I'm hoping nothing else has been put in the gearbox - the previous owner was an elderly bloke, and hopefully had no reason to have it changed), It's probably better (and potentially quicker) to do the level check before draining. That will at least answer the question of whether the level was too low or not.

On the perfectly level part, the ground round here is fairly level (indistinguishable for me, but the C5 auto-levels, and if I recall lifts the right side up a tad), since I'll most likely be doing it all with the suspension on high, (with some axle stands of course), shouldn't this be enough to satisfy it being perfectly level? :)

PS: I did buy some glass vials too, so can do a comparison :)

Thanks again.
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Re: Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

Post by Mandrake »

Hi Ben,

From bitter experience I strongly suggest that you don't attempt to drain the oil into two separate 3 litre jugs. 4 litres will come out, it will be too hot to put your fingers in, and it will come out real fast. The whole 4 litres takes under a minute to come out and if something goes wrong you'll have a hell of a mess. Been there, done that just recently. :evil:

I'd strongly suggest a single drain container of at least 6 litres to catch it all without spillage. I was using a 5 litre rectangular plastic bottle with one side cut out and even that filled up right near the top making it difficult to then pour it out through the spout without spillage. I then switched to a large plastic dish of around 6-8 litres similar looking to these:

Image

That will catch all the oil without any going on the floor, because not only does it pour down from the drain plug some of the oil runs back along the gearbox and dribbles off from other locations, so you need a wide dish to catch it all.

If the dish has curved edges and isn't too full you can then easily pour the oil into a measuring jug without spilling it, or into a large funnel into a waste oil container to take to the dump.

Regarding the temperature of the oil, you don't usually have to drive the car to heat the gearbox up again after the new oil is added because all the metal in the gearbox is at the same temperature too and has tons of thermal mass so the new oil is quickly heated up to the same temperature once the oil starts flowing.

On the older style 4HP20 where the drain and level temperature is 80 degrees I find that if I get it up to about 85 degrees by the time I've drained and refilled the oil and started checking the level its dropped just a few degrees to 80.

I suggested low oil as a possibility as one forum member, I think it was Stempy had a similar groaning noise on his Xantia V6's gearbox which he found was low oil due to a banjo leak. After the leak was fixed and the oil topped up the problem went away.

Having just recently experienced a leaking banjo out of nowhere (but fortunately catching it quickly before any significant amount of oil was lost) I'd say its probably worth you checking for that as well - its in the front left wheel arch, if you put the suspension on maximum height and turn on full left lock you should be able to see the pipe that comes down from on top of the gearbox and goes into the side of the gearbox with a right angle joint and a bolt. If its nice and dry and dirty there its fine, but if it looks wet with oil around that area it needs attention ASAP. (refer to the picture in my thread :) )

For level ground I'm not sure what you mean when you say the C5 auto levels - it won't adjust for the ground sloping, only for ride height! If you're parked on sloping ground the car will still be sloping. I should also add that when you're doing the final level checking the suspension should be at normal height - at maximum height the rear lifts more than the front (at least it does on a Xantia) thus tipping the car forward.

A couple more comments on the symptoms in your original post - when you accelerate from a standstill through 1st and 2nd it won't groan because the torque converter clutch is left unlocked in these conditions for maximum acceleration and pickup. Not only does this keep the revs above the "danger zone" where the groan occurs, the groan can only occur when the lock up clutch is engaged anyway, it never occurs when the clutch is disengaged.

If you then hold at a steady speed for a few seconds in 2nd the clutch will lock up (you may notice the rpm drop even though the road speed stays the same, or alternatively the road speed will increase while the rpm stays the same) once the clutch is locked (actually in controlled slip mode with a regulated 50 rpm slip) if you then slow down it will stay locked even as you slow down to 1500 rpm or so, then when you accelerate again it will be in its controlled slip mode and may shudder.

The kick that you're describing sounds a little bit like what mine is doing lately - if you're drifting with no throttle under certain conditions say around 30mph it will release the lock up clutch which lets the rpm drop to around 1000 or so effectively leaving you coasting, when you press the throttle the gearbox quickly re-applies the lock up clutch again, if this doesn't happen as smoothly as it should you'll notice a little kick or jolt where it feels like its suddenly engaging. I'm still investigating on mine to find out why its engaging so suddenly under these conditions.

One final thought about lock up clutch shudder, are you sure the engine is performing 100% ? Is there any possibility that you have an under load misfire or other engine performance issue ? Is there any hesitation or stumbling if you floor the throttle from idle in neutral, or when you suddenly press the acceleration while driving at low gear ?

I ask for a couple of reasons - one is that the pencil coils on the ES9J4S are apparently known for failing. They might not necessarily fail completely causing an obvious misfire at idle etc, but you may find that one cylinder is misfiring when you put your foot down hard.

The other reason I ask is that I've been thinking a lot about the engine/gearbox problems I've had in the last few months, and I've come to the conclusion that a poorly running engine especially an under load misfire causes a lot of problems for the gearbox and may even provoke clutch shudder and other weird symptoms like abrupt gear changes.

How ? One is that a misfire under load at low rpm will cause the power output from the engine to be "lumpy" instead of smooth, this may interfere with the gearboxes ability to regulate the controlled clutch slip.

The second point is that the engine ECU calculates an "estimated" torque figure in Nm based on RPM, throttle opening, MAP sensor reading, coolant temperature etc, and passes this figure to the gearbox ECU 100 times per second. The gearbox ECU uses this estimated torque figure as an important variable in calculating many things including line pressure, clutch engagement overlap, torque converter clutch pressure and so on.

My theory is that if you put your foot down suddenly and the engine ECU announces to the gearbox that its now putting out 200Nm of torque but due to a misfire or other poor running condition there is actually only 100Nm being put out, the gearbox operates the clutches in such a way that is expecting 200Nm which leads to poor quality shifts.

For example in the case where its needing to quickly engage the torque converter clutch in response to a sudden throttle opening if its expecting 200Nm it will apply a lot higher pressure to the clutch and more quickly than if it was only expecting 100Nm, if only 100Nm arrives but the pressure is high the clutch will grab abruptly instead of smoothly. I think that's what's happening with mine - the engine is reporting more torque than it's producing so the gearbox is reacting incorrectly.

The moral of the story is be sure that the engine is running smoothly and that you don't have any poor running symptoms or loss of power or it could be a contributor to the groan/shudder or to the rough engagement.
Simon

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Post by addo »

Absolutely agree on the over-capacity drain vessel. Also you can sit this in a drip tray to catch any that misses the main receptacle.
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Re: Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

Post by Ben82 »

Hi Simon, Thanks for the long post.. still trying to digest it all :)

Has taken me a while, but I've actually found somewhere selling a dishpan of decent size (it's a 9l, but is only 140mm tall, so should do fine :) ) so will add that to the shopping list.

Went out to see if I could see that Banjo but couldn't, I'm guessing I'm probably going to need to take the wheel arch cover off to see it on the C5.

Also did the foot to the floor in neutral like you suggested, I can't really tell if there's anything wrong (doesn't seem to be to me), but you might be a better judge, so took a video :)


I wonder if it's worth graphing some thing in lexia from the gearbox/engine on a trip making it occur to see if it can be narrowed down to the TC lockup clutch, and the conditions it happens in?

The coils that are reknowned for failing were the early Sagem ones, I think they were switched to Delphi ones before my C5 came about. Will have to try to check next time I get under the bonnet.
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Re: Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

Post by Ben82 »

To say I'm disappointed with the parameter measurements in the Gearbox ECU would be an understatement! "Gear selection" would only report P,R,N,D (even in sequential, so was not useful in knowing the real gear)
I looked in the injection one which had the correct gear item, but engine torque was always "???Nm", so wasn't useful.

So I did options that I thought maybe useful, don't think they are too much.
Image

I'm really not sure whether the pressure regulators are acting as they should.... don't think there's anything there that corresponds to when the groaning is occurring. (about 75s is when it occurred briefly)

The one thing that strikes me as odd, is the engine torque spending a lot of time BELOW 0... gets down to about -75Nm... The only thing I can think of why this would be correct, is when you are engine braking, and the figure is the difference between the torque that the gearbox has (from rolling along the road), and what the engine is providing).... however, this theory is blown out the water, by having ~-45Nm of torque when stopped!

On the engine performance side I thought I'd check the faults in the Injection whilst there (I've neglected them in the past as it's always been the "cat aging" one), this time the cat aging one wasn't to be seen, but was replaced with this:
Image
Now this could have happened any time in the past 3-4months (last reset was in March). So I think it's highly unlikely that it's a frequent occurrence (along with I doubt it's related), however the rpm and engine speed seem around the right ballpark when the groan occurs.

Maybe the engine torque not being reported in the Injection one along with the negative torque figures maybe an indicator that the wrong torque is being reported to the gearbox?
Last edited by Ben82 on 01 Jul 2013, 07:58, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

Post by Mandrake »

Hi Ben,

That dish sounds like it will do the job nicely :)

Yes you may need to remove the central wheel arch cover to see the side of the gearbox, my car has no cover there, I'm not sure if that's on all V6 Xantia's or whether mine is just missing!! :lol:

Your recording of flooring the throttle sounds absolutely fine to me, better than mine sounds.

What you're listening for is a stumble, splutter or unusual vibration when you first snap the throttle open before the revs start to climb. A stumble when snapping the throttle open is often a misfire under load, for example due to a weak spark.

Your second message I'll reply to tomorrow after I've had time to digest and think about it...
Simon

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Post by addo »

I suspect the C5, like many of its contemporaries and newer, does not allow full fuelling to the engine under idle with zero road speed. It makes the throttle tests a bit inconclusive.

At the risk of sounding boffin-ish, do try a contact mike on the gearbox and then filter the results with an EQ.
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Re: Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

Post by Ben82 »

Thanks Simon, did buy the dish yesterday, so that's one thing off the shopping list for the ATF change.

Since addo said about the flooring it without zero road speed I did another test this morning: 30mph, kick down to 1st and floor it..

To me, she doesn't miss a beat? :)

Another note on the VTC thing that I forgot to mention, there was one for the rear cylinders too at the exact same point too.. same details aside from the Error code. I will check in the lexia again when I get a chance, but I'm still doubtful it has any relevance, and is one of those spurious errors the car throws up :)

Thanks for the contact mic suggestion, I most likely won't go spending money on trying to diagnose this fully until I've done at least one gearbox oil change. :)
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Post by addo »

Contact mikes are cheap; you can get them for musical implements - might need a $5 preamp to go with it before the iPhone can record a signal reliably.

That does sound a smooth power delivery curve; like an AL4 it shifts conservatively.

Cam variators die; it's common on Alfas where you do them with every timing belt.
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Re: Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

Post by Ben82 »

I think I misunderstood your point of a contact mic... there I was thinking it should be one that I would attach to the gearbox to record the noise... not one just to provide better sound capture within the car :)
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Post by addo »

No, you understood correctly. But they're piezos, so the signal is really weak. Hence the possible need to preamp it. That all said and done you will need to play around with your sound file as it will have all sorts of interesting noises going on! In fact, The Prodigy might sample it...
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Post by Ben82 »

addo wrote:No, you understood correctly. But they're piezos, so the signal is really weak. Hence the possible need to preamp it. That all said and done you will need to play around with your sound file as it will have all sorts of interesting noises going on! In fact, The Prodigy might sample it...
I'm a little hazy on how this would be set up. Contact mic stuck on the gearbox, most likely underside, close to where the gearbox is attached to the engine. But then the cable is going to need to be routed up into the cabin to be connected to the iphone?

Simon, I seem to recall your description of the sound being like a steel table being dragged across a floor? She did that about an hour ago, in 3rd, and it was one of the loudest too :(

One other thing I noticed, was that you seem to need to be on at least a slight incline for it to occur. If you're going downhill (even slightly) it won't happen.

This weekend seems like it could be a good opportunity to do an oil change, as we shouldn't need the car next week if something went terribly wrong.
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