C5 2.0 HDi 136 clutch

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C5 2.0 HDi 136 clutch

Post by RichardW »

Anyone done one? Sounds like the DMF on my mate's has gone west, so looks like we are going to changing it some time soonish. Looks to be quite a lot of room under the bonnet but the power train is mounted a long way back, sort of over the subframe - is there room to get the box out without having to remove the front subframe :evil: :?:
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Post by RichardW »

Did a bit of research on service.citroen... looks similar to the pull clutch used on other ML boxes, although with differences for DMF obviously :lol: The flywheel bolts are listed as mandatory replacement, and their description is xhead bolt - what's that then - another special tool required to get them out?
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Post by flying clutchman »

Wher do I start? The C5 HDi is quite a difficult job. You don't need to drop the subframe but it is very tight and quite tricky. It is fitted with the pull type clutch which is assembled as 3 parts but removed as two. The flywheel bolts are standard torx bolts. I'm not sure why they are mandatory to change, they're definitely not stretch bolts.
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Post by RichardW »

That'll be why the labour quote was >£500....

We've done a 306 HDi and ZX TD before (inc cluch cables on both - the HDi is interesting - fortunately the A/C was already discharged due to failed pipe under the rad!).

My mate's building a Cobra replica with a BMW 4.0 V8 engine, and has a good set of tools, so we should be right to do it over a couple of days.....maybe!
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Post by RichardW »

New clutch is in :lol: Unfortunately car has decided it doesn't want to start now :cry: (more on that in a bit).

This car has done 90k, and the friction plate was barely worn - the total thickness is maybe 3mm each side, but there are grooves about 1mm deep in the face, and these were still visible on the old plate, so well <30% worn. The release bearing however fell apart, and when the flywheel was rotated against itself (DMF) there was alu dust coming out of the bottom. No wonder it was noisy!! Be prepared for a shock when buying the bits, as the 4 parts of the clutch kit are at least £400!

The job's quite tough going, but certainly doable in 2 days - one would be pushing it first time, although with the tips below, maybe not. Expect a large pile of bits on the floor in the middle of the job! Haynes covers it not too bad, but there are specific differences with this engine / box combo (2.0 HDi 136 / ML6C) that it omits :? So for anyone elese stupid enough to try this, here's some tips:

1. Don't even think about doing it without an overhead lift of some sort - there is a lot of wiggling required to get the box out, and it would be nigh on impossible with only a jack underneath.
2. The power steering return pipe runs across the back of the gearbox , about 3" under the chassis rail (yes, in fresh air!). This needs to be disconnected otherwise you can't get the box out (trust me, we tried. For a long time!). Be prepared for LDS loss, and replacement, otherwise you have to trek all the way across Edinburgh to buy 3 litres of the (very expensive from the dealer, like £15/litre!) stuff. There's a convenient rubber to alu pipe join at the back of the rad you can disconnect. However, take the lid of the LDS tank first to release the 0.5 bar pressure (we didn't!).
3. Contrary to others we have done the engine needs to be high to get the box out, but low to free the gearbox mount, so there is some up/down required.
4. There's a bracket bolted on the back of the diff to the engine block that needs to come off. At first try, you can't get the bolt into the engine out as it is fouled by another lump of cast iron bolted on the back of the block. After a lot of consideration you decide that the lump cannot be removed easily, so you chop slices off the bolt till it comes free. Later you find out that the lump HAS to be removed as it is hiding another engine / box bolt above the diff you haven't noticed before. You wil then find in fact that the lump is easily removed by removing the turbo pipe flexi hose and 2 nuts :oops:
5. The BOL says something along the lines of sqeeze the clips on the gear cables and lift them out. Ha ha! Not in a thousand hours. However, the cable bracket is bolted on the back of the box, and 5 minutes (blind, mind you, reaching over the diff) with the ratchet and the whole block comes free 8-)
6. The gearbox mount is different on these - a big rubber donut bolted to the inner wing, and a bracket on the box. Once you have removed the ECU box, take out the two vertical bolts, then drop the engine / box so you can undo the two bolts / 1 nut on the bracket on the gearbox (one is under the donut, and there is not enough room to lift the bolt out :roll: ) you can them manipulate the bracket out by rotating it around the donut.
7. If you can manage the driveshaft middler bearing bolts without taking the wing liner out on the OS do so - getting it out (and back in!) is a long arduous soul destroying job!
8. There's a brace across the bottom of the subframe that needs to come off too - but 4 bolts and it's easy!
9. This car uses a self adjusting push clutch. LUK will tell you that need an expensive tool to mount it. However, provided the mech is adjusted up (it was on the new one supplied) then I can't see why - they waffle about distorting the pressure plate - but not unless you are a ham fisted gorilla - it's about 4mm thick, and the bolts are only about M8! Certainly we just used an alignment tool to set the friction place and carefully progressively bolted it down.

The car started and moved fine on Saturday afternoon, but then my mate phoned on Sunday to say it wouldn't start :cry: Not sure what we have done - I think crank sensor is unlikely as it ran fine on Sat, unless we knocked it and it gave out a bit later. I don't even remember seeing it! The only fly in the ointment is that as part of taking the ECU box out we disconnected the main +ve feed post to it, and when tightened up, there was a disconcerting crack noise. Current thought is that we might have broken it off inside the box - but then I would expect difficulty in cranking it, or other electrical items not working.

Bugger, said Doogal..... :evil:

Hope the clutch continues to hold out in my Xantia so we don't have to do another one too soon!
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Post by Xantidote »

Well done Richard :D. Makes doing the clutch on a Xantia TD quite simple!

I think your write up, excellent though it is, has put me off the 136 HP version, should I ever get a C5! I'd have to settle for the 110 :(
Martin

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Post by steelcityuk »

Good write up!

I've got the A Class to do this summer. Aside from the access problems the bits for just the clutch seem to range between £300 and £400 depending on whether you change the release bearing or not.

Still the XM's is still in bits so there's no point thinking that far ahead.

Steve.
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Post by RichardW »

Now running again after Ciroen relieved my mate of >£200 for a new power board :shock:

Word to the wordly wise: If tightening up that main power feed go very very gently!
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Post by Citroenmad »

So £600 for just the bits then?

Wow, note to self: Go even more easy on clutch!
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Post by old'uns »

best start saving for mine then!

110HDi, '02 plate & 210k on original clutch :)
currently '06 C5 2.0 HDi auto estate Tip run and France trekker - well should be!! occupied currently by '10 Superb DSG 170 elegance- whistles and bells that work
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Post by Citroenmad »

old'uns wrote:best start saving for mine then!

110HDi, '02 plate & 210k on original clutch :)
That is very good going, especially since it has a DMF.

Our current 52reg C5 2.0HDi 110 SX had its clutch and flywheel replaced at 60K miles, as the DMF had failed. It was replaced with a solid flywheel and clutch, the car has now done 128K with no problems.

Our previous C5 estate was a 2.0HDi 110 with 105K when the friction plate was very thin and needed replacement, the DMF was fine however.

Odd how some DMF fail at low mileages and others last, driving style must be the biggest factor? However most people report the friction plate to still be very good when the DMF has gone.
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Re: C5 2.0 HDi 136 clutch

Post by peterdk »

Hi everyone.

I had a series 1 2.0 Hdi and i was a bit fearfull of doing clutch replacement on my series 2 2.0 Hdi 136 after reading this thread.

I would like to add my experiences from the procedure:

1. It is really not any worse than doing it on a series 1 2.0 hdi.
2. You do NOT need a lift. Jacks and stands are completely fine and a hoist or something to hold the engine up when you remove the gearbox mount. You need to loosen the rear engine mount so that you can move the whole engine a bit up to get the box loose. Then you move it forewards and down to take the box off. You can do most of the job single handed, but you need a good tall jack and/or a helping hand to take to gearbox off and on.
3. You do not have to remove any electrics, main plugs or whatever. Just take off the gearbox mount and you have plenty of room. My car is almost 15 years old and has driven on salty roads but I had no problem removing the gear cable connectors.
4. Tips: You must have some assorted 13 and 16 spanners and ratchets and extensions. There are some places where you wont get a 1/2" ratchet to fit!

Info:
The reason I did the job was that the clutch was slipping. In the end I couldent drive with a trailer behind the car.
When I looked at the old clutch it did not appear very worn. But I assume that it was perhaps the self-adjusting clutch that failed?
I am installing a single mass flywheel and clutch from mister-auto. 200 euro for the whole set with new bolts and everything.

Cheers!
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Re: C5 2.0 HDi 136 clutch

Post by estateFan »

I am in the middle of replacing the clutch on my 2006 C5 II Exclusive Estate 2.0 Hdi 136 so thought I would add my experiences.

My Situation. I have a reasonably good tool kit having repaired and serviced my own cars and motorcycles for the last 40 years. The last clutch I did was in the 80's, rear wheel drive , took 45 minutes. I have only had clutches changed professionally since because of front wheel drive. I have already replaced the rear suspension swing arm bearing and the timing belt myself as I have come to mistrust car dealers with a passion ( my car had a P0116 error, Citroen dealer replaced the turbo. Two years and 30,000 miles later got the same P0116 error so decided to diagnose myself as turbos don't break every two years. 20 pence for the broken plastic Y piece.!!!! Makes me think the turbo was not at fault all along. )

Parts: Paid £340 for the clutch and a DMF at GSF. Add on gearbox fluid - required 2.6 Liters for unfinned gearbox, LDS for the steering fluid lost when the pipe is disconnected ( see excellent post by RichardW which mentions some gotchas which help me enormously, thank you Richard), £28 for a crank seal in case the existing one was leaking ( it wasn't so I left it alone ) bring the whole cost to about £400. Note that the finned gearbox and different clutch specification came in about September 2006 so make sure you tell the parts shop the actual manufacture date based on the RPO number on the door post or they will use the DVLA first registered date instead. My car was manufactured March 2006 but registered Oct 2006 so parts guy recommended the wrong clutch.

Spanners etc. Note, the wheel nut is 35mm . The R clip will only come out with the wheel off. Then wheel back on so car is on ground when you swing out of the breaker bar to get the nut off. These should be 320Nm ie. very tight. ( One of mine appeared to need only about 100Nm to remove, worrying.)

Special Hose clip pliers to release the hydraulic pipe ( see RichardW post ).

The reverse protection device is held into the gearbox with a shallow head bolt , T-40 torx. Took me ages to work that out as every torx bit I tried felt loose.

The exhaust clamp is stainless and very spring. It took me forever to remove it. I had to take a 6 mm threaded bar with two nuts and washers to spread the ends eventually.

There is indeed a large bracket bolted to the back of the diff. which wraps round and is bolted to the engine block. This bracket must be taken off. The bolt is a torx ( can't remember the size ) but it is about 100 mm long. It won't come out until you remove the L bracket beside it blocking it in. Two 13mm bolts into the engine block and one 13mm bolt that's screwed down from the top through the stainless heatshield. Again, spent forever trying to get at it. A half length 13mm open spanner in the side might work but I used two extension bars, a long 6 sided socket and a helper person on top of the engine. The gotcha is that the stainless heatshield is not drilled, it's slotted so once you have got a turn on the bolt, the bracket pulls of in the direction of the gearbox. Once the long torx bolt was out, I used my DeWalt trigger clamp in spread mode, to push the engine away from the subframe to get clearance to remove the bracket which is slightly fouled by the subframe.

The gearbox needs to be dropped a little so you can get the mounting bracket on top of the gearbox off to clear the two 16mm bolts which are sort of hidden ( see RichardW ). Once the bracket is off, the gearbox needs to go up a little again and then pull towards the front of the car before dropping again so it can clear the subframe. I used two tricks. I had an engine beam directly over the engine support bracket. I wanted the beam more forward so it would encourage the engine to swing more forward so I used a car jack to hold the engine up while I adjusted the beam. Then I got my De-Walt trigger clamp and reversed the jaws to work as a spreader. I then put it in the gap between the subframe and engine block to push the engine forward.

I bought a 500kg Clarke transmission jack as I was removing the grarbox without help. It made the job simple. I ended up using a 1 tonne nylon ratchet strap to tie the gearbox to the lifting plate and some wooden packers. As far as I am concerned, don't attempt the job without a transmission jack if like me you are doing the work on your drive ( other postings mention the gearbox weight as about 40-50 kg ) I lowered and moved the engine and gearbox so that the gap between the enging block and bell housing stayed the same all the way round, a few millimeters at a time until the I could pull the gearbox input shaft clear of the clutch. The gearbox with the transmission jack under it would not pull clear of the car but there was plenty of access to the clutch and DMF anyway.

Don't forget the flywheel needs to be locked up so the flywheel bolts can be torqued up to 65Nm . I already had a lock tool from when I did the timimg belt but you can make one if necessary.

When putting the gearbox back onto the engine, I was able to check the gearbox shaft was heading into the clutch centrally by putting my hand into the bell housing through the starter motor entrance. I was shocked that the whole thing popped together with no issues. The adjusters on the transmission jack allowed for the small adjustments needed.

Subframe and/or front car body work don't need removing. I did remove both wheel arch liners which was easy as I had done them before and previously replaced rusty fixings for stainless steel. The plastic clips are cheap on the online auction website. I also removed the fuse box, ecu etc.


State of play: After spending Easter Friday ( 8 hrs ) and Saturday ( 6 hrs ) working on the car, only the gearbox and mount needed removing. I did the removal, clutch replacement and refitting yesterday ( 13 hrs ) . I have one more long day to put everything back on the car.

It looks like I don't have to click the release bearing into place like the haynes manual says. If anyone knows different please let me know.

It was a very long hard graft. Many hours were spent working out how to get at things. If I had that knowledge before hand I could have easily done the job in half the time. It's not a job I will look back on fondly to be honest, but I do know the job has been done properly. So still not on the road but I can see the light now. I hope this post helps you.


Regards,
Tom.
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Re: C5 2.0 HDi 136 clutch

Post by myglaren »

Excellent post Tom and just confirms that I won't be attempting that job by the roadside!
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Re: C5 2.0 HDi 136 clutch

Post by estateFan »

Just remembered. The gearbox oil capacities in the Haynes manual are wrong. They have the finned and unfinned headings the wrong way round. I checked with Citroen main dealer, unfinned 2.4 to 2.7 L , finned 1.9 L
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