207 Fan always on while engine Running

[Markwilson]

Hello,

I would like help with the current issue I am having with my Peugeot 207 1.4hdi.
The main issue is I have No ac working and Fan always on while the engine Running at High FAN Speed after 15 secs from startup no matter if the engine is hot or cold.

The car had a Regas a week ago, I have checked it and the Pressures which are 290 PSI on the high side and 55psi on the low side with the engine running in 34C outside temp.

This is my results from the Diagbox 9.91: (Lexia 3)

1> Tested fan on Low speed and high speed with the engine off = Both work fine
2> Ac Pressure in Diagbox is 20Bar (290PSI).
3> AC while ON in Diagbox it will show Inactive if I toggle AC button it will work for a couple of Milleseconds and it will go back to inactive.
4> Sunshine sensor in Diabox with no sun marking 4086%.
5> Coolant temp is matching the dashboard on the Diagbox.
6> Car Diesel DPF Regen in inactive mode.
7> AC Clutch passed the test from Diagbox.

Could be that the sunshine sensor is the issue?
What is the best way to test this sunshine sensor (Resistance is 175K Ohm)?

The car has no-fault errors if anyone can help will be highly appreciated.

Thanks
Mark

[ozvtr]

So you fitted A/C service gauges to the A/C system?
Both the gauges and PP agree the high side is 290 PSI? The low pressure service gauge is showing 55PSI? You cant have a pressure differential of 235PSI if the compressor is not running! It must be running but that won't matter and I'll get to why, soon.
Has your problem only risen since the re-gas? My bet is it has.
Those refrigerant pressures are too high. Should be about 100PSI (high and low) without the compressor running. About 30PSI low side and about 170PSI high side with the compressor running.
Looks to me like the engine ECU is running the cooling fan because of the high side over pressure and the system is wwwaaayyy over charged!
I bet without the engine running you get about 170PSI on the high and low sides?
FYI putting more refrigerant into the A/C system DOES NOT make it cooler...in fact the opposite!!!
I don't know much about the sunshine sensor but that's not your major problem ATM.

[Markwilson]

Thanks for the reply, 55psi low and 290psi High with Compressor running, yes on the AC gauges.
The problem started before the regas, it was found with 277G and refilled with a Total of 450G Fresh R134a the system was vacuum before refill and scale using a calibrated refrigerant digital scale.

The compressor clutch is engaged but on Diagbox everything shows inactive.
Find attached images with Engine off and ON which were taken with outside temp 32C.

The system seems it is refusing to equalize even after 10 hours of not being in use.

I have taken a quick look at AC parts this car takes the year 2012 since I am thinking that there is a restriction, any suggestion, please?

Thanks
Mark

[ozvtr]

The system seems it is refusing to equalize even after 10 hours of not being in use.

That's not good. But then my statement is pretty obvious.
There is a huge list of problems associated with that sentence that confuse me, but I wont go into them.

There is about 6PSI difference in the high side and virtually no difference in the low side between the compressor running and not. I believe the compressor has reached the limits of its ability (285.6PSI). So on the surface the compressor is compressing but refrigerant is not moving around the system.

Either way, the high side is too high AND it does not bleed down to equalize. Very confusing.

A single blockage causes the high side to go higher than normal (refer to my previous post) and the low side to go lower. But when the compressor switches off, the pressures equalize. The only way to get the symptoms you are experiencing is to have two blockages. Trapping the pressures into two compartments. It's possible the compressor reed valves are acting as one of the blockages as the extreme high side pressure is keeping them closed.

Again, the high side is way too high! Under any circumstance!

I should point out, knowingly allowing R134A to escape into the atmosphere is illegal. Ok having said that, if it was me, without the engine running and the system 'cold', I would slowly bleed off the pressure in the high side. I would carefully watch the low side and see if it begins to rise as you bleed the high side. If that works get the high and low sides to equalize at about 100-110PSI. The high and low pressure temperatures should show about the same as the ambient temperature of the day. If the low side pressure DOES NOT change I wouldn't take the high side any lower than 140PSI. Not that it matters, as that means there is a blockage and the system will need to be opened anyway.

Is there a reason why you don't take the car back to the guys who charged it in the first place? How did they not see that the interior was not getting cold before giving the car back to you? Did they just give up? Back yard job?

[Markwilson]

Thanks for the interest and time, maybe it's good to mention that I have a license in HVACR and trying to learn and fix my own car.

History about the car:
The car was bought from an auction 2 weeks ago with AC not working and the fan always on while driving.
Yesterday I managed to get a service history and discovered that the condenser was replaced in May 2021 reason "due to a leak" this explains why the system had green Dye in it. After I bought the car nobody did anything besides myself which is mentioned above.

Using a recovery machine I did what you suggested to remove refrigerant, Using the scale I got the pressures down by removing 160G.

This is my diagnose so far:
1> The AC blows cold only on the left side (Climate dual-zone) and after 5 mins it will get warner 10c to 20c and stop blowing cold, Right side stays warm all the time.
2> From the diagbox now I can see the AC request to go active to inactive which is perfect since I can see the signal also on the scope.
3> The Fan is working as it should, reading the service AC manual for the 207 in the safety section over 20bar will trigger the fan so you were correct on that, 25bar will turn the compressor off.
4> From Lexia I tested the Flaps actuator and passed the test for the Right side for HOT AIR and NO HOT air with a 30secs per side test.
5> Reading Pressures for:

Engine on after 5mins RPM idle = LS 33.4 PSI - HS 191.9 PSI
Engine off after 15mins = LS 67.2 PSI - HS 153.4 PSI (It got stuck around 67PSI and started going up super slow for 3-4 hours.)

After 3-4 hours the system got equalize LS 116.5 PSI - HS 116.5 PSI.

From the tests above the car is almost happy to work on 290G instead of 450G any idea, please?

Appreciate your help.
Mark

[ozvtr]

Ah Ok fair enough. Unfortunately I have no idea of the experience of posters on the forum so I have to assume they know nothing at all.

It looks like you are getting the refrigerant side under control.

I really don’t have an answer as to why the system is running on (what appears to be) 290g. The only way it would require less refrigerant would be if the volume of the system was reduced. That also reduces the CAPACITY of the system to cool. The only way that could happen (that I can think of) is if there was a build-up of impurities on the walls of the system but that’s unlikely. The pressures showed the system was over charged and they are looking much better now.

I can see in your photos the before, static after and in-service after. The static and in-service are looking good now.

You have to determine if your problem is still in the refrigerant side or the air distribution side.

You mentioned the compressor clutch, so I assume it’s a fixed displacement compressor? That makes it easier to diagnose.

Monitor the compressor clutch and the pressures while the system is running and compare that to the interior temperatures. Each time the compressor kicks in, the pressures should remain (about) the same and reasonably stable. The problem that I see at the moment is that it’s seems difficult to get a reading of the air temp directly from the evaporator? You need to confirm (somehow) that the evaporator output is good enough (or not).
You also need to determine if the rise in temperature is due a failure of the refrigeration system or the air distribution system adding hot air or the aircon ECU cutting the compressor.

The air distribution flap actuators are known to be a problem, they tend to strip the gears. I am not familiar with the 207, but the Citroen C4’s had a repair kit with an adaptor to reduce the load on the actuators. However, you said at least one passed the actuator test. If the actuators aren’t working correctly PP will tell you.

One thing that concerns me is the length of time that the system takes to equalize. Seems a bit long to me but at least it IS equalizing whereas it was not at all before. However, the only thing that really counts is the evaporator temperatures. If that is good enough, well, then the refrigeration system MUST be OK.

[Markwilson]

Thanks once again for your suggestions.

Re compressor yes my car has a fixed not variable compressor, image like my model is below.
Re flap gears, you are correct for the C4 and 307 however I cannot find any similar issue with the 207. Tomorrow I will visually inspect the servo motor to determine if it has any faulty gear, from the PP it works fine.

Today I took the car to an ac specialist with a referral by my friend for a free suggestion. He suggested that I remove the condenser + remove the compressor, remove all Pag oil in a measuring cup from the compressor and refill the compressor && New condenser with the correct amount of New Pag oil. He offered me another option to do a Refrigerant Inspection Sight Glass test which will determine the quality of the oil etc however that would cost €75 therefore he said it would be cheaper if DIY replace the condenser which will have a new dryer with new oil rings.

Re Cold air only on one side, he said could also mean the system is running on low GAS, re sunshine sensor he confirmed it is faulty since it should be 20-70% with a torch on it and not always 4086%. 4086% mean open circuit or no sensor connected.

What do you think about the above diagnosis re TOO MUCH OIL/ Dye in the system, I do not wish to replace new looking parts for nothing but he thinks it's a clogged dryer/condenser and that is what he would do if the car was taken to his garage. Car was always serviced by PEUGEOT, so now I cannot even trust the dealership in how much oil they put?

May I ask how much time for these cars to get equalize is considered normal?
While I was trying to do what you suggested I noticed that now the fan is not running at all with 15 mins test, should it always run low or high speed at all times or it can have an instance that can be off?

Thanks
Mark

[ozvtr]

Yes, of course, too much oil!

That answers most of the questions you have. Sorry, I wasn't thinking.

Unfortunately a lot of technicians assume that (some) oil has run out with the gas when the system has a leak, and top the oil up as well as the gas. It's not always the case that the system has lost oil, and time after time of topping up the oil causes system over load.

The oil displaces gas in the system, which causes low system performance and blocks valves. It reduces the available volume in the system, meaning that you cant put the full charge of refrigerant in and it wont get as cold as it should.

Argh! I am so mad at myself. I should have seen that! One of the reasons I started servicing my own car systems was because I had a leak and the guys I took it to kept topping up the gas AND oil. Despite topping up the gas, the systems' performance got worse and worse each time they put more gas in. Anyway I do all my own car servicing now because I believe I can do as bad a job as any professional can.

Yes you need to drain the oil. There are a couple of ways of doing this. By the book you should remove all the A/C components (compressor, condenser, evaporator, lines ETC) and drain all the oil out. Then put the full amount back in. That's not practical, the evaporator alone would take hours to get to! So the compressor and condenser are the only practical components to remove. You can get the system flushed. That requires a special machine and chemicals (I think that's the 'sight glass test' your friend was talking about). You could remove and drain the compressor, put a partial fill of oil, run the system, recover the gas, remove the compressor, drain the oil, check the volume of oil in the compressor (as that guy said). Typically the compressor contains about 80% of the total volume of oil in the system. The rest is in the lines, the condenser and the evaporator. Without knowing that you have removed all the oil from the system, the amount of oil you should add is only a guess anyway. But at least it will be better than your current situation.


I would pull the compressor out first and drain the oil. Inspect the quality of the oil. Your friend is worried about the compressor failing. If the oil is good (clear) I wouldn't replace anything...yet. If it's grey he might be worried about the condenser having metal particles from the compressor in it and blocking it. In that case you would need to replace the condenser and the compressor too. With the compressor disconnected remove the schrader valve in the high pressure line. Blow compressed air through the lines to the condenser and evaporator and see if there is a blockage. Don't use high pressure, just enough to do the job. That should tell you if you need to replace anything.
If you blow air through the condenser and it seems to be blocked, you could pull the descant out of the dryer and inspect it. See if it's dirty or blocked. Leave the descant out and put the cap back on the dryer and blow air through the condenser again see if the descant was blocking the flow.

The TX valve should open up as the system gets warmer (compressor off) and the system should equalize quickly.

While I was trying to do what you suggested I noticed that now the fan is not running at all with 15 mins test, should it always run low or high speed at all times or it can have an instance that can be off?

I'm not sure what you mean but if you are asking if the radiator fan should turn off some times, then yes. The fan is run by the engine ECU. It monitors the engine coolant temperature and the air conditioning 'high side'. As you know there are parameters to do with the high side pressures that cause the fan to run. Typically its not until the engine coolant temperature gets to about 95'C that the fan starts to run. So if you don't have the air conditioning on, the radiator fan doesn't run much at all.

Oh by the way if your compressor is like that one, it is a variable displacement type as it has the electro-valve on the back.

[Markwilson]

Re flap I have checked the servo motor, found everything in perfect condition and I could see it close and open, the car has only 60,000KM.

Re Compressor that was taken from Service box using my VIN number and got the image from the net, I have checked on the car itself and I confirm it looks like my model.
Re Fixed or Variable, I learn that there are only 2 types and did not know that there are compressors that are not clutchless and are still called a variable. From the books I read a compressor with a clutch is always listed as fixed and a compressor that always turns with the engine is listed as a variable. Thanks for letting me know such info.

Regards
Mark

[ozvtr]

There are a few variations of the variable displacement compressors. With and without a clutch. Even the older types of Sanden compressors that PSA used were variable displacement. But they had a counterweight connected to the wobble (swash) plate that reduced the displacement at higher RPMs, effectively giving the system a more constant output, no matter what the engine RPM. Rudimentary, but still a form of variable displacement and no electro-valve.
In retrospect I guess I should have asked “do you have an electronically controlled variable displacement compressor?” My point was that the electronically controlled variable displacement compressors add another potential item to fail (the valve). But in this case, so far, I don’t think you need to worry about that.

[Markwilson]

I have good news.

Re compressor was found with clear green oil, I have replaced the oil with the same new amount and put 30ml in the new condenser which in total makes it less than 130ml which is in spec by the service manual, installed new o-rings and remounted, replaced the condenser, nitrogen test overnight and no leak, managed to pull vacuum 449 macrons and re-gas 430G and the problem is gone LS 31PSI HS 183PSI, stable cold air finally with the engine running for over 2 hours driving. Radiator Fan seems to work have been monitored and logged at low and high speed on PP.

The problem of cold air on one side still persisted and was running out of options, decided to remove both Air cabin filters for a test although they look brand new to my surprise, one of the filters had half of the plastic film genuine Peugeot rapping in the filter slot which was blocking the system on the right side. How can someone do such an idiotic mistake I do not know but I was lucky that it did not get sucked in the tubing and that would making almost impossible for me to discover.

Sunshine sensor changed and marking 20% inside my garage with a torch on it 50%.

Anyway, I do all my own car servicing now because I believe I can do as bad a job as any professional can.

Today I can say you are also 100% correct on this one, the stuff I found was worst than a backyard job over 75ml thick green oil UV DYE in the condenser, complaint filed at Peugeot and was told that was a lease car before you bought it, therefore, the previous owner could have tampered with the car or taken the car to someone else at his cost, this is the worst excuse ofc since either they forget that they gave me the service history and I can read that they changed cabin filter and condenser due to a leak. As a goodwill gesture, I was given a free car service so sad

Thanks for your kind help && time, you are awesome. Although I have more to learn this gave me a lesson.
Mark SOLVED!!!!!

[ozvtr]

That's excellent news. Good work.
Yes, it's a pity that you can not trust 'professionals' these days.
I have heard of people leaving the wrapper on cabin filters before, but you don't expect that from the dealer. Well spotted! I would never have thought of that.

[ozvtr]

complaint filed at Peugeot and was told that was a lease car before you bought it, therefore, the previous owner could have tampered with the car or taken the car to someone else at his cost, this is the worst excuse ofc since either they forget that they gave me the service history and I can read that they changed cabin filter and condenser due to a leak.

Wow, the incompetence goes all the way to the top!
So someone with a leased car (with free servicing, why else would you lease a car?) would PAY some body else to service their car, and void the lease agreement? The service manager then 'forgets' that they gave you a copy of the service history, no doubt as proof that the car has a service history to sweeten the cars' sale to you? What an insult to your intelligence!

I'm not sure I would take them up on their free service.