My Engine

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Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur
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Re: My Engine

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur » 17 Jul 2019, 07:46

:-D Thanks Neil ! :-D

I was amazed to realise I've made 1,000 posts!

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Re: My Engine

Post by XUD Marine » 21 Jul 2019, 14:04

I'm glad you are all finding this an interesting topic.
white exec wrote:
12 Jul 2019, 21:47
Long pipes (18-20mm bore) to a cabin heater shouldn't be a problem. Just give them some insulation, and some shut-off valves at the engine end (to cater for a leak).

That's exactly what I was thinking of doing, just didn't want it in serial with the cooler. I think a cut-off is a good idea, for leaks and when I don't want any heat.
Little Grebe wrote:
15 Jul 2019, 17:27
it is unusual but not unknown to fit a car type heater and most boats have a independent diesel heater.

I thought I may as well use a car type heater, engine heat is just wasted energy, so may as well put it to some use without burning any more diesel since the heater pipes are there on the engine. I don't suppose it would be too difficult to get a heater matrix from the scrapyard. Then I would just need some kind of fan control and maybe some vents to send heat inside or outside.
Little Grebe wrote:
15 Jul 2019, 19:25
Hello, I will take some photos of the engine and cooling system layout if it would be of interest, thanks again for the information.

Thanks. Good to hear from someone else with a marinised XUD7. It would be interesting to see your set-up. My salt water circuit will be simple enough with just one heat exchanger in the header tank. The coolant I can work out without the oil cooler and heater, which I may do as a temporary set-up until I get a cooler and later install a heater.

My main query about that is exactly where the cooler is fed from on a system that already has a cooler. The Haynes manual shows 5 different cooling circuits from various vehicles, all of them differ from the one shown early in this thread and from mine, so there are a few variations.
Mine looks most similar to the "Visa" version in the manual, with the extra inlet port at the pump for the return from the expansion tank. The only difference is mine has 2 heat sensor connections on the thermostat housing like the BX version shown, where the Visa has just one. But the BX is different to mine because it has an extra outlet on the thermostat housing for the oil cooler and no return pipe from the expansion tank because the radiator is a header tank.
So my question is, from someone who has a version with an oil cooler, where is the cooler feed outlet, before or after the thermostat? It is not clear from the diagrams whether the cooler is fed only when the thermostat is open or at all times, that's what I'm trying to establish.
Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur wrote:
15 Jul 2019, 22:33
just having a scan through this thread, can't see whether the 'Crankshaft Pulley Off' question has been answered or not....

I can confirm I changed the belt without removing the pulley. The bottom cover came off in one piece without breaking anything, I maybe needed to bend and twist it a bit, but it came off and went back on without any damage.
Although the cover and belt needed a little extra manipulation to get around the pulley, I think it did make life easier as I have no brakes to lock the crankshaft while undoing the nut, I was advised not to trust the pin in the fly for that purpose. Also the nut (still being there) was useful for turning the engine when I want it to turn.

On a side note, I have started pondering the electrical system. I spent a bit of time yesterday afternoon salvaging various bits and pieces off my old boat, which sadly is looking like being scrapped, but plenty of useful parts for reuse. My mate has already had the engine out of it for one of his projects, a marinised Fordson Major, a nice old engine, but I wanted something smaller, lighter and less agricultual for this project. The XUD seems to fit the bill, relatively modern, but not so much so that it's reliant on too much eletrickery which is what you don't want on a boat.
Anyway, mostly what I was interested in was getting the wiring off it as it's all in decent condition with plenty of components for reuse.
When I opened up one of the junction boxes I saw something odd in its fusebox which left me confused and concerned.
One of the fuses had melted away, but not blown.
fuse01.jpg
It looks like it got very hot and melted the plastic, but not enough amps to break it. :?
This was an 8 amp fuse that sat between the alternator and a split charge unit, so carried the charge from the alternator. I had one of those split charge units that caravaners use because I had 2 separate batteries for engine and everything else (lights, bilge, pump, radio, nav, etc) because I soon found with one battery on an open boat, the auto bilge pump soon knackers a battery during a the "rainy season".
This time the boat is two thirds open, so will also be subject to rain water and I'm thinking of going with a dual battery system again.
I asked a mate about the fuse last night in the pub who knows about auto electronics, he had a business that does re-mapping and suchlike, and he says he's never seen that happen. Though he says it could have been a failty/cheap fuse that should have blown but didn't.
One theory I have come up with, (but I'm not an expert on this, I'm just making this up) is that I used a good size cable from the alternator to the fusebox to comfortably carry the current, on the other side of the fuse box is the short and thinner wire into the charge unit. Does going from a thick with to a thinner one create a current bottle-neck that can create a hot-spot? I know undersized calbes and bad joints can become hot-spots with high current. The thinner wire is native to the charge unit, so you would think it was sufficient for the job.
Well, nothing caught on fire at least and everything appeared to be working perfectly. Opeing the box was the first I knew of this. It's just a concern because I was tinking of reusing the parts for a similar system.

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Re: My Engine

Post by moizeau » 21 Jul 2019, 15:21

Don't get a heater matrix from the tat yard. Buy new,, the last one I bought for the BX was 50 quid. You don't know if it's any good or how long it will last until it's fitted.

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Re: My Engine

Post by white exec » 21 Jul 2019, 17:04

Heater matrix: yes, new. Nissens brand (Mister Auto) have a good reputation.

Cabin heater: No reason why you shouldn't fit more than one (waterworks in series) if you need to heat more than one space.

Fuse melting: Not unknown where fuseholders age and oxidise, then overheat, without blowing the fuse. Some original fuseholders used by PSA were hopelessly under-spec'd for the current they had to handle. Just fit good quality new, and check the current being handled. Sealey do a couple of very handy little clip-on ammeters, which you can use on d.c. circuits without needing to cut the cable.
clip-on ammeter.jpg
clip-on ammeter.jpg (13.73 KiB) Viewed 215 times
Available 30-0-30 and 75-0-75amp. ('Sealey ammeter' on Amazon will bring them up)

The oil cooler can be plumbed in "across the engine block", just like the (cabin) heater matrix. So it needs to be fed from the engine block side of the 'stat, and return to a similar point as the cabin heater. The water pump pushes water round the thermostatically shut-off small circuit of engine block/heater matrix/oil cooler.
When the 'stat opens, the main radiator is gradually brought into circuit. So even in very cold conditions, the engine temperature (oil, water, cabin heater) can be up to useful temperature quickly, even though the main radiator could be partially/completely shut out. On the two Haynes diagrams (Visa & BX) the smaller of the two hose outlets looks like the place to feed both oil cooler and heater matrix.

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Re: My Engine

Post by XUD Marine » 21 Jul 2019, 18:35

moizeau wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 15:21
Don't get a heater matrix from the tat yard. Buy new,, the last one I bought for the BX was 50 quid. You don't know if it's any good or how long it will last until it's fitted.

Noted. It's not a component I have ever had to deal with before.
white exec wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 17:04
Fuse melting: Not unknown where fuseholders age and oxidise, then overheat, without blowing the fuse.

Everything inside the junction box, including the fuse box was spotless like new, no oxidisation or signs of aging. It was all in a sealed box to protect from the elements which has worked, but the other side to that is no ventilation to dissapate heat.

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Re: My Engine

Post by XUD Marine » 21 Jul 2019, 20:10

white exec wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 17:04
The oil cooler can be plumbed in "across the engine block", just like the (cabin) heater matrix. So it needs to be fed from the engine block side of the 'stat, and return to a similar point as the cabin heater.

This is just what I neded to know, I thought it would be "engine side" but when you say parallel with the radiator I took that as being the other side of the stat.
white exec wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 17:04
On the two Haynes diagrams (Visa & BX) the smaller of the two hose outlets looks like the place to feed both oil cooler and heater matrix.

Here is where the two diagrams differ, though the Visa one is just like mine pipe wise.
vista.png
From the stat housing, the big pipe to the rad, the tiny pipe to expansion tank and the back pipe returning straight to the pump, no oil cooler. The heater fed from the manifold side.
The only difference to mine, just one temp sensor connection.
bx.png
In the BX we have the extra outlet on the stat housing for the oil cooler which I don't have. The cooler return joins the main return pipe, but for simplicity I could use the spare port at the pump.
So I see two options to feed the cooler, make a T split from the heater port on the manifold side to feed heater and cooler or butcher the stat housing by drilling out one of these holes to make it like the BX one.
Therm04.jpg
Note the two blanked holes in the side.
Like mine the BX has two temp sensor connections.
I don't quite get the "Temp warning switch" and the "Emergency temp warning switch", as in "It's fried" or "It's super fried", I would understand it if one were a warning light and the other a gauge. Or am I missing something?

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Re: My Engine

Post by white exec » 21 Jul 2019, 20:32

The two temp sensor switches are shown (#18, #19) on pp 149-150 of Haynes.
Some models had a very basic instrument panel, and there were two warning lights for high and extra-high coolant temperature (amber and red), and the circuit shows a flasher unit for one of them.

If you ever fitted a proper temp gauge later on, you would replace one of these switches (the lower temp one) with a sensor for the gauge. So you're right: one for gauge, plus one as a warning.

I guess as you say you can either drill out a spare port on the water outlet, or tee-off a heater feed hose, whichever is easiest - so long as you come off on the engine block side of the 'stat.

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Re: My Engine

Post by sparksie » 21 Jul 2019, 21:16

Hi
This is my day-to-day job and I wouldn't advise using the inductive pickup for the tacho.
Much more reliable and, therefore, more commonly used in the hostile marine environment, is the alternator driven tacho.
Many alternators have a "W" terminal as standard, but if yours hasn't, it's a simple thing to add one.
The tacho itself will cost the same as an inductive type, but the wiring is slightly simpler, needing only +,- and w connections.
If you buy a new tacho, it will come with instructions for calibrating it.
I'm considering following in your footsteps and would like to know where you got your manifold and heat exchanger from.
One thing occurs to me, regarding your oil cooler. In a land vehicle, the oil cooler is a supplementary cooler, with the air flow around the sump doing the majority of the cooling. On a boat, there is NO sump cooling, as the air down there is usually very hot, so boat oil coolers tend to be significantly larger than car ones.
Indeed, they are often cooled by the raw water circuit, after the heat exchanger, just before the exhaust injection point.
In this position, I feel your big one may well over cool it, but if you plumb it into the coolant circuit instead, I think you should be fine.
The marine version is also significantly more robust, so less likely to rupture, as discussed earlier...
just my tuppence...

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Re: My Engine

Post by Little Grebe » 22 Jul 2019, 09:44

Hello,
Sorry I have not learnt how to extract parts of the text on the posts yet !
I have been using the Haynes Manuel 0950 Peugeot Diesel Engine, 1982 to1996 and have found it relates to my 1.7 (161A) engine apart from the marinised parts.
The engine is fitted with an oil cooler.
Please note that this is a long term renovation project with upgrades to the original systems, I am working on the cooling system, replacing the hoses flushing the engine cooling system, new calorifier and replacing/upbraiding the engine electrics.
A good article on fitting a car type heater is covered in the book How to install a new engine diesel engine by Peter Cumberlidge.
I believe it was also covered in practical boat owner magazine recently ( I will see if I can find it ).

Out of interest what kind of boat do you have XUD marine ?

As previously mentioned I will take some photos when next at my boat including the oil cooler and confirm the cooling system route, the pictures of the cooling manifold outlets where very useful as I had struggled with the same questions (when I purchased the boat the engine had been removed ).
Out of interest. my heat exchanger is mounted on the left side of the engine (Bowman) and I believe the engine was marinised from new around 1990.

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Re: My Engine

Post by Little Grebe » 22 Jul 2019, 10:23

Sorry I forgot to mention my engine also has a expansion tank fitted, if you intend to spend time on salt water it would be worth using tinned cable rather than the standard car type cable, more expensive but far less vunrable to the sea environment especially for crucial circuits. Also it is recommended to use standard mineral oil rather than semi or fully synthetic oil (mine is 15W/40).

I would like to thank all of those who have contributed to this topic and XUD marine for raising the subject, I would of not thought of it on a car forum and only came across it on doing a search on Google regarding Peugeot XUD engines, THANK YOU.

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Re: My Engine

Post by XUD Marine » 23 Jul 2019, 22:16

white exec wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 20:32
The two temp sensor switches are shown (#18, #19) on pp 149-150 of Haynes.
Some models had a very basic instrument panel, and there were two warning lights for high and extra-high coolant temperature (amber and red), and the circuit shows a flasher unit for one of them.

OK, so amber for "It's getting kind of hot, I think you should know about it" and red for "You seriously need to do something about this right now!"
sparksie wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 21:16
Hi
This is my day-to-day job and I wouldn't advise using the inductive pickup for the tacho.
Much more reliable and, therefore, more commonly used in the hostile marine environment, is the alternator driven tacho.
Many alternators have a "W" terminal as standard, but if yours hasn't, it's a simple thing to add one.
The tacho itself will cost the same as an inductive type, but the wiring is slightly simpler, needing only +,- and w connections.
If you buy a new tacho, it will come with instructions for calibrating it.

Interesting, something I will have to look at, at some point. Though my alternator has only 2 connections, a B+ and F which goes to the battery light.
sparksie wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 21:16
I'm considering following in your footsteps and would like to know where you got your manifold and heat exchanger from.


The manifold came from Lancing Marine and the heat exchanger(s) from Ebay, though Lancing can supply the whole kit. I got the manifold, bell housing, drive plates and front mounting brackets from them.
https://www.lancingmarine.com/pricebook ... age17.html
They have some experienced engineers who are happy to give advice on the phone and are very helpful.
When you order drive plates and bell housing you need to tell them which gearbox you are pairing with so it can be machined to fit.
The manifold is aluminium with some nice welding on it and two inlet ports to feed the Y shape both sides, so you have to split your sea water at the end.
exhaust01.jpg
I don't have a pic of it in bare aluminium before spraying.
If I have to criticise, it is awkward to bolt on with little space for a socket or spanner.
When I took the original off, it's held on with nuts on studs, for me all the studs came out, except the bottom right/front where the nut came off leaving the stud in the engine.
So I replace the studs with stainless bolts, but there is no room to get a socket on the heads, but I was just able to do it with a spanner, except for the upper inside ones.
exhaust02.jpg
Five bolts and one nut (bottom right) but the top inside bolts are not tight, can't do it.
With the air manifold there it's impossible to get a spanner on. What I did was borrow 2 socket screws from the air manifold and swap them with the bolts. I had no socket screws at the time.
So with hind sight, you should get some socket screws in advance for this job. That will require removing the studs from the engine.
alt01.jpg
Likewise, the same problem with the starter bolts in the bell housing, by this time I had aquired some stainless socket screws, no way you would get a bolt in that top one.
One more gripe, the holes in the rear mounting brackets (part of the bell housing) are half an inch further apart than the front ones, was it too difficult to put them in line?

sparksie wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 21:16
One thing occurs to me, regarding your oil cooler. In a land vehicle, the oil cooler is a supplementary cooler, with the air flow around the sump doing the majority of the cooling. On a boat, there is NO sump cooling, as the air down there is usually very hot, so boat oil coolers tend to be significantly larger than car ones.
Indeed, they are often cooled by the raw water circuit, after the heat exchanger, just before the exhaust injection point.
In this position, I feel your big one may well over cool it, but if you plumb it into the coolant circuit instead, I think you should be fine.

I hadn't considered the air around the sump in a vehicle, but makes sense. What you say is pretty much what Lancing advised, a salt water heat exhange would over-cool the oil, I would be better off with the coolant fed vehicle cooler.
Little Grebe wrote:
22 Jul 2019, 10:23
Sorry I forgot to mention my engine also has a expansion tank fitted

In my case it is a header tank and heat exchanger combined, so no need for an additional tank. I suppose the marine equivilent of the BX having the tank combined with the radiator.
Little Grebe wrote:
22 Jul 2019, 10:23
I would of not thought of it on a car forum and only came across it on doing a search on Google regarding Peugeot XUD engines, THANK YOU.

It may be a little unorthodox, but I think I know about marinisation already working with boats for some years. It's basically pumping sea water through the hull and pushing it through various heat exchangers to cool various engine fluids, that side I have seen and can work out.
But what I needed to know was the specifics of this particular engine. There were so many different fluid ports it made my head spin trying to make sense of what they all did. That and other questions specific to this engine itself which don't necessarily relate to marine use.
This seemed like a place with people who know these engines inside-out.
Little Grebe wrote:
22 Jul 2019, 09:44
Out of interest what kind of boat do you have XUD marine ?

Ineresting one as it's not (going to be) the same boat that it was.
The hull is a Freemen 22, which would have been a cabin/river cruiser, the sort of thing that may chug around on the Norfolk Broads. They were nicely fitted out with accommodation in hard wood, the company apparently started out making and fitting out caravans before turning to doing similar with boats. This is the sort of thing it would originally be, more pics at the bottom of that page.
https://www.burtonwaters.co.uk/boat-for ... 32477.html
But what I aquired was completely stripped out to an empty shell of a hull and much of the superstructure removed. A blank canvas if you like.
hull01.jpg
This is it pretty much as found, looking quite different from the original with the full cabin
hull02.jpg
As you seen the interior had been completely gutted.
hull04.jpg
Looking a bit smarter after going round the hull with filler and a roller.
hull03.jpg
But still plenty more to do on that side of things.
So what I'm planning is a two thirds open boat, with the small cabin at the front, you can see from the link there is room there for two bench/bunks in V formation. Nothing too lavish, just somewhere to get shelter, sit and have a brew, or get your head donw in needs must. I'm fitting a bulkhead at the back of the cabin and steering with be outside behind the bulkhead. The engine will be central with a suitable fiberglass cover box.
It should be a lot lighter than the original with a bit more power, the hull shape looks like it would have no problem with a bit more speed. I will have to beef up the hull around the engine area, wooden beds to spread the engine weight, glassed over for more strength and protection and probably thicken up the floor there too. It won't break any records by a long way, but if I keep weight to a minimum and get the right prop, it sould be go quite nicely. Ideal for fishing trips and suchlike.

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Re: My Engine

Post by van ordinaire » 28 Jul 2019, 00:08

Better late than never but I think you'll find M7 stainless bolts easier to source than you believe.

A couple of times in recent months I've wanted replacement bolts (though NOT M7) & have found specialist fastener suppliers online with the most amazingly detailed catalogues, with reasonable prices & with no minimum order. Search, e.g. "M7 stainless bolt" & I'd be surprised if you didn't find a choice not only of length (overall & thread) & head type but also grade of stainless.
Last edited by van ordinaire on 14 Aug 2019, 00:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Engine

Post by XUD Marine » 02 Aug 2019, 18:46

van ordinaire wrote:
28 Jul 2019, 00:08
I'd be surprised if you didn't find a choice not only of length (overall & thread) & head type but also grade of stainless.

Yes they are there.

A little bit of progress. I got a load of silicone hose elbow reducers to start building the cooling system pipework.
Also got an oil cooler, the 1103A2 version which is quite thick. But I'm still short of the hollow bolt and not sure where to find the right one.
cooler02.jpg
The other option is to make one. By the pictures I have seen the bolt is male both ends, like it screws into the engine and the filter screws onto it.
But when I take my filter off there is the thread stuck out that attaches to.
filter01.jpg
So that would need to come out leaving a threaded hole, as seen here when the cooler is off.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58040
It's just my mate seems to think the engine side of the bolt should be female and scew onto the existing thread that's stuck out. The thread I think is 20mm, the hole throught the cooler is 24mm, so would not leave much thickness with 20mm thread inside.
I think it should look something like the one in this picture (though different cooler and engine)
https://dispatchexpertscudo.org.uk/foru ... php?id=560

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Re: My Engine

Post by white exec » 02 Aug 2019, 21:10

Parts diags for 1.7 & 1.9 (and 2.1) XUD show that the centre hollow bolt for the cooler is male thd at each end, so guess that threaded stub in your last photo will unscrew.
It looks like M20, designed to screw straight into a filter, with no cooler fitted.

The correct centre hollow bolt for your 1103A2 cooler is 1103C3, but NFP.
That cooler (1103A2) was standard fitting for the XUD11ATE/BTE engines (2.1 diesels), which you could find in a variety of XM, Xantia etc.
Paul (citroenxm on here) may be able to help with a used bolt.

This company sells a whole variety of oil coolers, and also some M20 hollow bolts (for their sandwich take-off plates)...
https://www.thinkauto.com/acatalog/Extension_Bolts.html
Don't know whether any of theirs are the right length for your cooler.

I have one surplus bolt here (XM 2.5), which is quite long, and could be cut and shut...or (better) have its r.h. end turned down and re-threaded (a plain 12mm drilling passes all the way through).
XM2.5_cooler_centre_bolt.jpg
...if you get really stuck.

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Re: My Engine

Post by XUD Marine » 03 Aug 2019, 11:50

From the pictures I linked to, it's clear the engine end is male. I measured the hole through the cooler at 23.5 dia, if it were female with an M20 thread inside it would be a bit too thin. The depth of the hole is 53mm.
I have scribbbled down a drawing which has gone to my dad, who fortunately is a retired engineer, but he still has machines in his workshop and doesn't mind a little project now and then. So that is being made presently.
I did have a search around but wasn't able to find the right one anywhere, though I did not have the part number at the time.
A quick search for that number, I found it on a stock list for a place near Knottingley, but it says 0 quantity in stock.

I have some stainless hose clips on the way. Once the cooling system is piped up I can put in some fluids (oil, coolant, ATF for the gearbox) and see if she fires up OK.