LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by RPekka »

GiveMeABreak wrote: 14 Jan 2022, 14:42 It happens - fact. Specifically on the C5 and C6 vehicles. ...
In other words, if the garage lowers the car too fast to the ground and the suspension is not in the highest position, ...

If you are careful how you return the car to the ground, then you likely won't have the issue.
That might be it as I've only used a regular hydraulic jack and axle stands so I've dropped it one side at a time. If the suspension has been in working condition I've usually also raised it to max as it's easier to jack up, unless of course I've been working on the suspension like changing the sway bar links or lower ball joint.
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Yep - shouldn't affect this sort of careful usage. It's generally the 'monkeys' in the garage that aren't aware or don't care... crash, bang, wallop. :-D
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by asaf400 »

Ohh no..
I may have dodged the bullet there,
I just replaced 4 tires at the same time, without knowing this procedure,
I think I recall the fitters lowering one wheel at a time, hopefully allowing the pressure build-up in the tank be more gradual...
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by thundermaster »

Many thanks guys for these labels!
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by Xantianut »

Like the thought of these.

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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by Sean[C5Exc2009] »

Many thanks for this info. Not had the car long and currently servicing her. I had no idea about this, I don't suppose the tyre fitters did when I had all four replaced! Think I got away with one!
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by GiveMeABreak »

No problem, tyre fitters are not often warned about it and with the general high turnover of fitting staff these days - I wouldn't trust that they had been notified.
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by aspire_helen »

1. Regarding MOTs. Advice from Citroen regarding safe jacking (of specific C5s only) used to be contained in the DVSA's Vehicle Specific Information (VSI) for MOT examiners. However, the DVSA has withdrawn the VSI (arguably to avoid litigation if the information proves incorrect) and I am unclear whether MOT examiners have anything to replace it. Does anyone know?
2. The VSI above only referred to C5s with VIN prefixes VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff] or VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]. In addition, Citroen only required the reservoir cap to be removed, no mention of raising the suspension, but is not necessary when only ONE wheel was raised at a time. Citroen also specified that only the designated jacking points must be used. Should the DfT be advised to widen their advice to all(older) C5/C6? ....by this forum?
3. Notwithstanding the limited application of para2 above......for my 2001 C5 I always provide a written and verbal brief to the garage and/or MOT examiner. I am not confident stickers will be followed.
4. I never leave my car with tyre fitters. In fact, I now present them with loose wheels. I have had several occasions where rim corrosion has caused slow air leaks. My local fitter is happy to remove the tyre, then I take the wheel home, repair/touch up the rims and clean as necessary, and return a few days later. The cleaning assists the adhesive balancing weights to stick. Also, i find the personal care and attention I take encourages the fitter to do likewise. Fussy I know, but then its a hobby.
PS I have an MOT tomorrow!! I may report back re premature cracking of Goodyear tyres........for another thread
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by aspire_helen »

Is there an automated "VIN obfuscated" coding on posts? If so, the VIN prefixes need to be put in as per my post for safety reasons.
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by myglaren »

Yes, only forum staff can see any VIN postings.
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by aspire_helen »

Then, forum staff need to publish those VIN pre-fixes as per Citroen's guidance to MOT examiners
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by GiveMeABreak »

1) Info should be on their database.
2) The info we publish is general advice when more than 1 wheel will be left unsupported (hanging freely)
3) The suspension on high is to ensure that the system is pressurised, so that when the vehicle is lowered suddenly, it will prevent any fluid pulled into the struts (when raising the car with the wheels unsuspended) from then rushing back under the weight of the vehicle and potentially damaging the LDS tank or it exploding as has happened.
4) You shouldn't leave your vehicle or explain the procedure to tyre fitters (I always raised it and waited whilst they fitted the tyres) when they did mine to ensure it was done properly.

As for the MOT - I always waited and ensured they did it properly too, but most procedures of the test seemed to have the wheels on the ramp for checks and of course the suspension checks.

It's really irrelevant concerning the VINs as the advice is intended for all Hydraulic C5s and C6s regardless of VIN. We are unable to unmask the VINs you have provided as it will affect the Forum's protections to members providing their VINs for part numbers, sorry.
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by myglaren »

While it can't be relied upon universally most MOT stations and tyre fitters should be aware of the need to treat hydraulic Citroens with special care. The place I take my car for MOT, tyre fitting and tracking are well aware of it, it comes up on their screens when they enter the car make and model.

There are similar procedures for Land/Range Rovers with air suspension and presumably Mercedes with hydraulic suspension.

Still a god idea to have the instructions clearly printed and visible on the car when submitting it for MOT, tyre changes etc.
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by aspire_helen »

Marc, as per your own post in 2020, it is Citroen who issued warnings about safe jacking of C5s to their dealer network and said they would inform the DVSA for MOT examiners. I note in your thread, the specific VIN pre-fixes were still obscured. Ref: https://mtaeta.info/thread/2264/safely-jacking-c5 dated 9 August 2015. I copy it, again, here:

Quote "One of our vehicle examiners recently asked whether the Citroën C5 could be jacked safely as he had heard that there may be a health and safety issue that could impact on the MOT test. As our information was a bit sketchy, we contacted Citroën for advice. Citroën told us that they were issuing advice through their dealer network but would send one of their engineers, along with the latest C5, to our workshop in Bristol. The problem is that when the latest versions of the C5 (those with VIN prefixes VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff] or VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]) are jacked and the wheels are hanging free, the manufacturer’s advice is to remove the LSD (suspension) fluid reservoir cap as there is a risk that the hydraulic reservoir could rupture. Citroën also advise that the C5 should only be raised using the designated jacking points.
Although the cap is readily accessible, it is not acceptable to remove it during the MOT test. As the axles are normally lifted independently at MOT tests, we asked Citroën if these procedures would still require the removal of the cap. We also asked about the possibility of using other mounting points, such as the sub-frame, to jack. Citroën’s response was that the cap must still be removed when the car is jacked, but need not be removed where only one wheel at a time is raised. However, they would not support the use of anything other than the designated jacking points. We are therefore adding this advice to the Vehicle Specific Information (VSI) database. Remember, it only applies to those C5s with the VIN prefixes mentioned earlier" Endquote

Point 1. Citroen's advice (above) only applies to specific VIN PRE-FIXES, eg "recent" C5s (in 2015, that is), not old ones). There is some chat online suggesting that that range of C5 were fitted with un-vented reservoir caps. The forum MUST publish those VIN VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff] pre-fixes (5 characters) - ***RD or ***RW (which I hope passes your text system) - IT IS A SAFETY ISSUE, not administration.
Point 2. Citroen's advice (above) does not address older C5 (nor C6) whose reservoirs may be age-weakened. Nor does it require the suspension to be functioned. Hence, the advice on this forum is especially important, as per the warning label. I always follow it. Talking of which.........
Point 3. Having just returned from an MOT this morning, I can confirm the MOT examiner had NO knowledge whatsoever of any issues with the C5, and indeed did not know how to raise or lower the suspension. I demonstrated how. He was aware of Land Rover suspension info. I had already removed the cover to reveal the reservoir cap, and showed how he just needed to loosen it.

Can someone advise the forum precisely what relevant information MOT examiners are given and how/where?
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Re: LDS Tank Bursting Warning Labels

Post by GiveMeABreak »

  1. I don't know what your are referring to from the link above - that's not my post - it's to some MOT Forum, though I may well have mentioned it separately in the past, but can't be expected to remember everything now after 34.5k posts. :wink:
  2. There is no difference on what the C5 model is - those MOT people do not understand the vehicle. Reason being:
  3. Yes, there was a, modification to the LDS (not LSD as mentioned in that Forum :roll: ) cap - it was a small hole. However that would be totally ineffective and would make ZERO difference realistically if the vehicle was lowered rapidly to the ground. The pressure would be far to great to allow the pressure to evacuate from the pathetic hole on the revised caps. That hole would only be good for allowing small amounts of air / LDS to escape in say the case of it being overfilled by accident. It would make no difference to the huge pressure created when the vehicle was lowered when all the LDS in the struts and the circuit from 4 wheels is all returned as speed under weight to the tank.
  4. We have produced those as even some who had the new caps had exploded LDS tanks. Citroen don't always get it right.
But of course the choice is always on the owner and is really up to them. It is something we did given the number of issues reported for the benefit of our members. Therefore the VIN prefixes are irrelevant as the same applies to all Hydraulic C5 and C6 vehicles as far as we are concerned. The VIN is only referencing the vehicles that should of had the modified caps fitted at factory build date, but as said makes little to no difference in the case of a catastrophic pressure overload.

Lastly, I would recommend owners concerned waited with their vehicles where possible to ensure it is being handled correctly. True, the MOT inspectors are not allowed to remove anything or interfere with the vehicle in any way, but that does not stop you from doing so before the test.
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