Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

[Old-Guy]

Beginning to really regret selling the Green Lady (Xantia Estate). The Picasso went sick in the middle of nowhere yesterday - no mobile reception, no houses.

Bear with me a moment as the circumstances seem relevant. We'd stopped to swap seats so I could navigate while she drove. Left the engine running with the electronic parking brake manually set. As we moved off, warning beeper went off [Left side front door not closed!], so I opened the door and slammed it (as you do) - simultaneously the engine went sick (3 cylinders) with Engine and ESP warnings (lamps & messages). Stopped, shut down and re-started - all fine until revs raised to about 1,800 when engine and ESP lights came back on and one cylinder went dead. Repeated several times. No power at all - crept back to main road - any up-slope required 1st. Recovered by Britannia Rescue (front-wheel lift) which upset the ECU even more: Now 'dead' cylinder is a 'hard' fault as are engine and ESP, new faults on ABS and parking brake (works manually but not automatically despite using the Off button before towing).

This is the 2011-14 8-valve DV6C 1.6 HDi engine, not the earlier 16-valver. Appears that one injector died without warning, but it's one hell of a coincidence that it happened just when I opened the front door at under 10mph while coasting.

A generic code reader indicates that No 1 injector is dead.

An exchange injector is £336 from GSF - £514 from Citroen. Haven't yet tried anyone else. A very expensive mistake if it's not a dead injector!

I now have two problems:
a. The car was recovered to home (no mobile reception at breakdown site) and it's effectively un-driveable; both the nearest Citroen dealers are half-a-dozen hilly miles away.
b. As I'm having 1 or more stents inserted tomorrow (day patient) I'm banned for a week from driving or doing anything active.

Questions:
1. In 'limp' mode does this engine shut down one cylinder and limit revs to 1,800 with about 10hp? i.e. is this breakdown simply 'limp mode'?
2. Will clearing all the fault codes fix the Engine, ESP, ABS and Handbrake faults?
3. Any traps for the unwary when changing an injector on this engine?
4. Any suggestions for a better deal on an exchange injector (I'm very wary about buying critical parts on eBay).
5. Should 1982 G6 ENGINE INJECTOR PROTECTOR be changed at the same time?
6. What would I need to be able to read and clear faults? I have a variety of pensioned-off but working laptops (W95, W98, XP) and my current one runs Windows 7. I use Mint 17.3 for choice, and will continue to avoid later versions of Windows for as long as possible.

As always, comments and definitive answers gratefully received.

[RichardW]

Sorry to hear that....

This is almost exactly what my parents' one did - dropped injector with no warning - and yes about 10 mph was all they could get out it. Ended up getting it recovered from Edinburgh to Kendal. They got it fixed at a local place, but no idea where the replacement injector came from. Clearing the engine faults will probably fix the other warning lights - Diagbox will be required to interrogate it; and you may need to code the injector as well. Lighty (who runs a garage in Derbyshire) said on a recent post that he had done a few on this engine; drop him a PM and ask him where he sources replacements. AFAIK injector change on these engines is not so bad - note that injector no 1 is probably flywheel end though! Not sure from here what the part you have listed, but I would change the fire seal at the bottom, and also the one at the top if there is one. You should probably also re-cut the seat - you can buy a tool for not too many £££.

[Gibbo2286]

There's an injector overhaul specialist in Gloucester I've used a few times, if it's still there opposite the Kingsholm rugby ground.

[RichardW]

Marc linked these people when I posted about my Dad's: https://www.gapdieselsolutions.co.uk/di ... GwodXBwMpg no idea how good they are!

[Lighty]

We have changed about 10 of these injectors now.
No 1 cylinder is indeed the gearbox end of the engine.
We always buy from Citroen & they are usually about £300 for the exchange one, if you have been quoted £500, it because they are quoting for a brand new one & not an exchange unit I would think.
The No1 injector is easy enough to fit, but the code will need to be programmed in and a very specific method of learning it into the engine. Diagbox lets you know when it's fully programmed. This is why we always use genuine units as they are very fussy to get right.As a guide we. Charge £100 + vat to fit one.
Hate to be pesemistic, but at least 70% of the cars we have repaired have another one fail within the next 12 months.
Seems that there must be a specific type of injector that has a problem.
You other faults , handbrake, esp etc etc will go away once it's fixed, these are a by product of the engine not running properly, you will not be able to drive it anywhere.

[Old-Guy]

Richard - Thanks a lot for the information; so (for once) the ECU is probably telling the truth. I've heard of Gap Diesel Solutions, but that might have been from Marc's post!

Gibbo - thanks for the recommendation, but I can't trace them.

Lighty - thank you so much for the expert advice, you're a real gent. I'll take your advice on using a genuine Citroen injector despite the price. If only you were a lot nearer! As the car isn't going anywhere, so even tho' I don't like the idea too much, I may have to get someone competent to change the injector for me and then talk a forum member into bringing their Diagbox kit over to program the injector.

Perhaps the fact that yesterday was so hot, and we had been driving slowly with the A/C on before stopping with the engine running meant that very high under-bonnet temperatures caused a failure of one of a batch of suspect injectors.

[RichardW]

There's a revised part number for the injectors, which suggests they changed something.... £295 for an exchange one (new design).

Hate to be pesemistic, but at least 70% of the cars we have repaired have another one fail within the next 12 months.
Seems that there must be a specific type of injector that has a problem.

Hmm... must be a year and a bit since my Dad had his done, and my Sister has the car now... it doesn't do many miles and must be about 18 months since it was done. Be expecting the call for it having broken down soon then....

[ekjdm14]

Well if this is the only Achilles heel of the DV6 at least it's a bit quicker and cleaner than swapping a turbo/pipework etc!

FAO Lighty, have you noticed any pattern in models/years more prone to failure/weather conditions etc to suggest it may be the superseded part was affected by underbonnet temps?

[Old-Guy]

FAO Lighty, have you noticed any pattern in models/years more prone to failure/weather conditions etc to suggest it may be the superseded part was affected by underbonnet temps?

I was wondering that too, but a sample of 10 is far too small for any meaningful conclusions even if it were feasible to get a reliable and complete scenario from drivers.

[Old-Guy]

From my reading of service.citroen, the two pairs of part numbers are for new or exchange (re-manufactured) injectors either as a set of 4 or as single items. As I've no access to prices, I can't tell which pair is new and which is exchange.

GAP in brum have quoted me £157+VAT on exchange with 12 month warranty. Next job is to research reviews etc for them.

[RichardW]

Here's the part nos:

1980 ER
RP 98 024 486 80

NE HDI COMPLETE INJECT HOLDER
CONTINENTAL AUT -
- UNTIL RPO 12813

1980 ET
RP 16 085 183 80

ES HDI COMPLETE INJECT HOLDER
CONTINENTAL AUT -
- UNTIL RPO 12813 AND AGE >= 2

98 024 486 80

NE HDI COMPLETE INJECT HOLDER
SIEMENS REGENSB -
- SINCE RPO 12814

16 085 183 80

ES HDI COMPLETE INJECT HOLDER
CONTINENTAL AUT -
- SINCE RPO 12814 AND AGE >= 2

The ones for >=2 will be the re-man ones. You will see that the 2 early ones are now replaced by the two later ones. Price will be each... Try emailing the guys at Rigbye, they discount genuine parts (http://www.rigbye.citroen.co.uk)

[Old-Guy]

Richard, many thanks for:
first, deciphering the Citroenese. Even after 10 years, I still struggle sometimes to find the right page on service.citroen (though not this time) and then working out what some of the descriptions actually mean. Strangely the Replacement Part no is the same ( for both before and after RPO 12814
and secondly for your recommendation of Rigbye - I'll have a look at them.

It's taken me at least an hour of checking this morning to discover that while GSF show a more or less correct vehicle description for the Reg No "CITROEN C4 GRAND PICASSO MPV 1.6 HDi Diesel (11/10 - Present)" at least the injector (and probably every other part) that changed from 1/11/2010 is actually for the pre-facelift models with the older Euro 4 engines! Selection by Make, Model, Year and 1.6HDi Engine gets you a choice of 109 or 112hp which is right, but then I get ""no products matching the selection". Checking light bulbs (about the only other GC4P parts that I'm familiar with), I get a confused muddle because the descriptions are inadequate (or strange) and 'application' is mostly missing - you certainly couldn't rely on their database to find a replacement bulb with any confidence - you need to know the precise bulb type and colour in advance. That said, even the Handbook is vague for some applications (e.g. indicator side repeaters).

With the Xantias, GSF were my supplier of first resort - very knowledgable (about Xantias), excellent service and mostly competitive pricing - but this major muddle has blown their credibility because it may well extend to all PSA models post-2010, because just about every model got a facelift with the new (Euro5) engines introduced from 1/11/2010 for 2011-on.

EDIT - sorry, (http://www.rigbye.citroen.co.uk) goes to Citroen UK's dire Find a Dealer page and Rigby don't have their own website (banned by Citroen?). I'll get an e-mail address when I do manage to contact them and post it.

[Old-Guy]

The saga continues:-

The injector page for the VIN No (the RP is 12574) shows:
1980 ER
4 (set of)

RP 98 024 486 80
1 (replacement part)

NE HDI COMPLETE INJECT HOLDER
CONTINENTAL AUT -

or

1980 ET
4 (set of)

RP 16 085 183 80
1 (replacement part)

ES HDI COMPLETE INJECT HOLDER
CONTINENTAL AUT -

However, the less specific data that Richard posted previously provides the vital clue in the extra line of description: - UNTIL RPO 12813 AND AGE >= 2
that 16 085 183 80 is the exchange part, regardless of the RPO as both new part nos are replaced by the same exchange RP - how to confuse this simple soul.

Next task is to find out how difficult (special tools and prayers - like the 16V engines?) it is to remove and replace the injector - not that I'm going to do the job, but a matter of needing to find someone with the special tools, experience and skill - or not. Perhaps Lighty will be kind enough to enlighten me (and anybody else).

Does this mean I ought to feel duty bound to start expanding the C4 Wiki now?

[RichardW]

I'll e-mail you the procedure from Citroen... I guess it all depends on whether it will pull out of the head or not!

[myglaren]

Perhaps the GSF people were knowledgeable because they were the original French Car Forum (AndySpares) before being absorbed by GSF