1.6hdi oil change - suction method?

[Andle]

This topic spurred me to get this cheapo pump from ebay-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-60W ... 2749.l2649
It worked a treat. The smaller inlet pipe, that goes down the dip stick tube, needed a firm push once it appeared to reach the bottom. The extra inch gained found the last of the old oil.
Bear in mind that this was my experience on a 1.6 Hdi. I carefully measured the waste oil sucked out- and there could have been nothing left in the sump.
But what I did discover is that if the oil was filled to the top marking on the dip stick, that took 4.45 litres. In the book the oil capacity, with filter change, is 3.75 litres.
So, surprise all round. 1/ That the total oil capacity for such a busy engine was so small. 2/ That there is no marking on the dip stick to indicate the correct level and
3/ I have been driving round unaware that I have overfilled the oil by a considerable amount, an extra 0.75 litres.
this all flagged up because the suction pump pulled out 4.45 litres.

I'm beginning to have a suspicion that the bulletin advising for drain only (not pump, has something to do with the large flakes/particulates/congealed lumps/skum that forms part of the body of oil in the sump.

I'm speculating that the drain method - gets over more 'clumps/lumps' than using the pump method where the aperture of the hose is going to be limited?

I'd be interested in others thoughts on this?

If the oil from a standard drain, were compared to the oil extracted using a pump - which of the two pans would contain more congealed lumps/flakes/clumps?

[moizeau]

You maybe over thinking this, it's an oil change, get the oil hot, drain it, suck it, whichever. I've never seen congealed lumps after a change.

[JohnD]

Below is the wording of what supposedly was a technical bulletin issued by Citroen regarding the correct procedure for changing the oil on the 1.6 Hdi unit. I

I don't think there's any "supposedly" about it. I recall seeing this bulletin in the early 2000's printed as an official Citroen notice with heading and logo. At the same time, there were reports of Citroen's worry over the numbers of engine/turbo failures, many of them occurring within the warranty period.
As it happens, one of my daughters takes her 2018 C4 in for a service today, simply to maintain the warranty. The service will be done where all our cars go for MOT. There, I know that the undertray will come off, and the oil will be drained.

[discv]

You maybe over thinking this, it's an oil change, get the oil hot, drain it, suck it, whichever. I've never seen congealed lumps after a change.

I would have thought that if any congealed lumps etc. were present in the oil of a 1.6 Hdi- then a turbo failure is virtually certain to follow very soon.

[GiveMeABreak]

Indeed, and another reason why a gravity drain with the oil at 80°C is probably the best way to ensure you get as much crud out.

[Hell Razor5543]

When I had a company Peugeot Partner with a 1.6L engine the service company would turn up early (so the oil would be nice and warm after the drive to the depot) and then jack up the nearside so that the wheel was way up in the air (several inches). That way a lot more of the oil would be drained out.

[Andle]

I guess the question comes to this:

Why is citroen so against the pump method?

Why did they mandate drain only?

Think about the man hours it would save the mechanics / dealerships & the costs of lifting all those cars up on a ramp.. There must be a reason they went with drain only?

[JohnD]

There must be a reason they went with drain only?

It was costing them too much for warranty work in having to replace turbos and in some cases, complete engines because bearings were being starved of oil.
See this article: https://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/tackl ... di-engine/

[Andle]

But why would citroen not provide a pump - that could extract all the oil?

Why did they rule out any sort of pump/extraction device?

Surely this is something that could easily be arranged/supplied.

[GiveMeABreak]

On some engines they do provide a choice of draining (C1, C5 as some examples) on others they don't specify.

1) Gravity drain probably may rid of more crap and 'bits' in the oil that you can miss with a suction probe.
2) They can get on with other parts of the service while the oil is draining
3) The Vehicle already goes up on a ramp so they can get the tyres off and check the brakes and pads / drums. Don't forget that a dealer undertakes a standard health check with their servicing that involves checking all the brakes, tyres, discs, fluids etc.
4) Engine design: Not all engine designs may be suited to using a suction probe (shape of tubes / danger of damaging any internal parts etc.)

[discv]

Bear in mind that this topic is 1.6 Hdi specific. And the point that is being over shadowed is- how are 'bits' sometimes showing up in high tec. oil?
The first problem is that the turbo is feed with unfiltered oil. Its supply is drawn up from the gallery after the oil pump but before the filter. For this reason the turbo oil feed pipe is fitted with its own gauze filter. This filter has since been upgraded to a very, very fine nylon filter. Either way it is no easy task to get to check/clean this filter- it is located within the feed pipe at the bottom banjo. A sad design fault.
Next, should any 'bits' be present in the oil the turbo oil feed filter will do its job- trap the 'bits', block up,- and goodbye turbo.
The bits could conceivably come from elsewhere, but are most likely to be the result of leaking injector copper seals. The escaping hot gases get to mix with engine oil and form a hard grit. Yet another sad design fault.

The so far successful solution for me since an engine rebuild a while back-
1/. After a great deal of research, I ditched the turbo in line oil filter. I figured that contaminated oil was better than no oil. I've since discovered that my main stealer does exactly the same.
2/. Ignore the stupid high mileage oil change recommendations. My own view is 5k max.
3/. I inspect very carefully at regular intervals the area around the base of the injectors for any sign of any form of change.
4/. Against all advice, every few thousand miles, I back off the injector retaining studs- incrementally [little by little], NOT to the point where they are loose but to the point where I can re torque the the nuts and redo the angle tightening.

So far.........

[GiveMeABreak]

Yes the general consensus on frequency seems to be anything from 3k to 6k for oil changes for these specific engines (or less if your wallet permits). From my part, I was dealing with the question regarding suction v draining of the oil and not specifically the Turbo oil starvation issue that is prevalent on these engines.

But as it has been mentioned and the OP has also posted on the injector torque settings on another thread, it is worth talking about the 'bits'.

So how do the bits end up there in the first place -

The issue is carbon build up and the main cause of this is carbon forming around the injectors. The copper washers can then fail and once this happens the sleeve oil seals are ruined by the carbon build up. Once carbon gets into the engine oil - it starts forming a thick sludge and gets stuck to and blocks the oil channels and other parts, so it's a sure thing that the turbo is next. If the turbo still has the filter in the banjo bolt, then this will hasten oil starvation and adios turbo. If it has been removed, the oil will get through, but will just prolong the failure as the bearings get damaged over time.

Click the images to zoom

Engine / Injector Ports: Heat will quickly turn this sludge to carbon.	These are large carbon particles found in the sump	Solid carbon deposits in the Turbo Core and Thrust Bearing

[discv]

Sorry, I did rather highjack the thread, cracking on about injector seals! But my intention was to suggest that if we have reach the stage of 'bits' in the oil- then how the oil is drained is purely academic.

[GiveMeABreak]

I think it is quite relevant to be honest. When you think that even the smallest particles that you can see in the middle picture are enough to knacker the turbo and score the cylinders it's all useful info - making sure the injectors are tightened to the correct torques and regular oil changes.

Of course, the earlier on the enhanced maintenance is undertaken in the vehicle's life, the less chance of the damage occurring in the first place.

[Andle]

Let me ask this. If a turbo was written of while these cars were still under warranty - citroen developed a specific approach to sort things.

I understand that when the banjo bolt gets blocked and a new turbo was needed, they had a specific procedure in place for the work to remedy the situation.

Naturally there would be the clean up & new parts - but there was something else.

They did recommend a specific type of engine oil to flush the engine them change it soon after. Some dort if specialised engine clean in order to remove any grit/grains that are left in the engine - to ensure the replacement turbo has the best chance if being ok.

What is that type of flush called - what us this type of specialist flushing fluid called?