General upgrade for C5 x7

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vborovicfan
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovicfan » 11 Mar 2016, 16:58

btw i just though one thing. in passive non hifi system in c5 woofer and tweeter wires are same (just paraleled) in tweeter you ahve capacitor in series (no high pass filter for woofer-striaght to ng4 unit). with hi fi system when hi fi amp also serves as active filtering a total of 4 wires need for one front channel. that means in factory preinstalled hi fi amp there is double of wires to speakers (from rt6/ng to amp probably only 8 LR/FR/RF/RR but from the amp to speakers there should be double of that ,keep in mind that) because active crossover is diferent than passive xovers.

vborovic
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovic » 11 Mar 2016, 17:29

That's correct, the amp feeds each speaker separately, compared to the no-amp radio only (where the front tweeters & front woofers share the wiring) .. but, in the case of the hi-fi setup (original), the rear door also share the same wire, for a separate woofer & tweeter combination ... that's why I'd go for a 2-way speaker (woofer & tweeter in a single unit), since I don't want to replace the door cards just to get the tweeter mesh/grill ...

vborovicfan
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovicfan » 11 Mar 2016, 17:59

so that means that only front speakers have active crossovers? because if back woofer/tweeter shares wires they are passive xover then.

vborovicfan
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovicfan » 11 Mar 2016, 18:01

BTW I have sawn two types of nice rear mirrors - full chrome and part chrome (which i prefer) my car have folding mirrors but not fotochrome, is there chromed mirrors without all those electrochromes- i get messed because sellers of variuos rear c5 mirrors specify diferent pins quantinity (i think even 4 diferent types)

vborovic
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovic » 11 Mar 2016, 18:09

It would seem that way, considering the wiring schematics ... shame tha you can't get a technical detail of a tweeter (or speakers in general) via genuine part no ... the Hi-Fi & non-Hi-Fi speakers & tweeters are a different part numbers ... what is the difference between chromed / erlectrochromed? There should only be 2 general types: electrochromed & regular (but with different tinting and a different spherical image)

vborovicfan
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovicfan » 11 Mar 2016, 20:14

i wish it would be this simple. sellers of rear mirrors tells 7/11/14 /9 pin versions.

c5rich
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by c5rich » 11 Mar 2016, 22:49

vborovicfan wrote:8) Intrument panel- changed from monochrome yellow to multicolour.
Hi Vborovicfan, do you have any photos of this change please?

vborovicfan
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovicfan » 11 Mar 2016, 22:52

c5rich wrote:
vborovicfan wrote:8) Intrument panel- changed from monochrome yellow to multicolour.
Hi Vborovicfan, do you have any photos of this change please?
hm.. actualy not,jsut photo before and after. its quite easy swap(i expected it would be more complicated- there is more than 8 diferent codes of intrument panels and i thougth theya re very specific, but i have tried three diferent , even from diesel and all worked with all functions)

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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovic » 12 Mar 2016, 20:50

Regarding the sound in the car, let's go over it once more from the top:

tweeters: http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/pr ... nc-c000-4/ ... how much modification needs to be done to fit them in the existing plastic triangles/grills in the dashboard behind the windshield?

Regarding the woofers, for the front door, I'm looking at a component speaker (http://prekyba.combo.lt/lf-drivers/841-beyma-605nd.html). In the rear doors I'd need a 2-way speaker (woofer + tweeter), what to get, a component (is it me, or do these seem rare?) or coaxial variant? Does the Beyma in the link have a 2-way variant? If possible, I'd like to avoid cutting anything (supposedly, there are low-profile woofers - but the price is a bit high ... nearly 300 EUR for a pair of what I'm looking at).

It would be great if I could remove all the door cards and test various speakers, but I can't do that to my car and I don't have a source of test speakers (I could buy them, but its a hassle to return them and ask for a refund/other speakers), that's why I'd like to gather related information as much as possible before I attempt doing something on this scale (modifying all 4 doors on the inside - speakers, sound proofing, wiring, extra lights, etc ...)

Xantippa
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by Xantippa » 12 Mar 2016, 21:01

You just have to cut out that stupid cup behind speakers if upgrading to proper hifi speakers. That's only way to fit any good speaker and that cup prevents bass element from breathing properly into the door, so you just don't get good bass with it. Cutting that cup is a 2min job with Dremel or similar mini-drill.

Installing better tweeter to stock position and aimed same way doesn't help much either, because tweeters are aimed so badly in the stock positions - especially on drivers side. A bit of modding with glass fibre is easy thing to do and returning to stock if wanted needs just to buy new speaker grilles.

vborovicfan
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovicfan » 12 Mar 2016, 21:18

Xantippa wrote:You just have to cut out that stupid cup behind speakers if upgrading to proper hifi speakers. That's only way to fit any good speaker and that cup prevents bass element from breathing properly into the door, so you just don't get good bass with it. Cutting that cup is a 2min job with Dremel or similar mini-drill.

Installing better tweeter to stock position and aimed same way doesn't help much either, because tweeters are aimed so badly in the stock positions - especially on drivers side. A bit of modding with glass fibre is easy thing to do and returning to stock if wanted needs just to buy new speaker grilles.
I have cutted. then bought new uncut to replace cutted. those pastic are there not without the reason. it prevents from watter to woofer.
in the front there is no space after those plastic (10mm at best) - bigger woofers with bigger magnets wont fit- windows lifting mechanism prevents that . maximum woofer depth 50mm or so.

Xantippa
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by Xantippa » 13 Mar 2016, 08:34

Well I've had 65mm deep speakers in front doors for about three years now (Rainbow Germanium CS265.25). Windows go all the way down, and no problem with corrosion. Doors do have seals, so there's not that much water in there. I've installed speakers to doors for 20 years now, and haven't had any problem with water on any car without those cups or protective plastic behind speaker.

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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovic » 13 Mar 2016, 09:59

Any chance that one of you could send one old genuine door speaker (woofer) to my address? I can pay for the shipping via PayPal. I've found several speakers on sale on ebay, price starting from 10€, but the shipping tag is killing it ... the speaker doesn't event have to be working, I'd just like to do some measurements and try to find the speaker which would not need cutting out the plastic cup holder.

vborovicfan
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Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovicfan » 13 Mar 2016, 13:31

vborovich, I will try to write short tutorial about car speakers upgrade for any possible enthusiast. later I can add some photos with explanations. you write very clearly and clasify upgrades very well so we(you can publishwith gramar and typo error corection-I write fast and with lot of errors) this on your upgrade page

C5 stock sound is muddy in the midrange also have a big resonanse in 200Hz vocals sound too chesty and spoils midrange further .I have really heard better original sound instalations form other cars for sure.

For anyone who wants to lift their C5 sound to another level there is a cheap and simple way-

LEVEL1- replacing front woofers and front tweeters.
front tweeters can be replaced with genue citroen tweeters (I will look for PSA number when I will get car back from servise) those are updated /better tweeters- http://www.rcl.lt/index.php?id=2&lang=l ... e=&frame=3

physicaly they are direct plug’n’play –lock to original places. the plughowever need to be modified –at least on my car .DO NOT reverse polarity keep it the same. cost is 6eur/each

change woofer to any other woofer which have more efcienty and more midrange http://www.visaton.com/en/chassis_zubeh ... g17_8.html

it cost 18eur/each and are almost direct plug and play- even the holes for bolting it are identical with original c5 front woofer. however internal cutting size required for this woofer are 145mm while original plastic tube in c5 are 143mm,so 2 mm of those pastic need to be grinded with sharp knife etc, also one small plastic as well. there is no addvanced skills required and anyone not double lefthanded can do this in few minutes. you can aslo carefully cut whizzzer of this woofer (we do not need this as we need fequency above 7khz, and it roll of with so big off axis )
conectors is also need to be modified. best cut original plug solder usual speaker contacts and plug it to woofer.
also keep polarity the same as it was. also a small ring of 2-4mm can be added to lift this woofer a bit from its palstic podium- this way it gets perfect seales with door trims when they put back.

its IMPORTANT- if you use this Visaton BG woofer you CANT replace rear ones with same Visaton – this visaton woofer are midrange not woofer and the lowest frequencies need to be supported by rear woofers. of course you can use timbre to up bass but its not good solution. in short you need leave rear speaker for bass (unless you have subwoofer)
after this you can expect much more loud sound, which is less discorted also midrange quality is way more clear and textured making this perfect for listening radio or talk via bluetooth phone –you can hear person much more clear.Also audio wil start sound better at lower volumes.


LEVEL 2. exactly the same as first but in the rear use good quality 6.5 inch 4ohm woofer capable of reproducing lowest frequencies. I finded this one it the best for its purpose (and it have poly cone good for humidity issues in car)
http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/pr ... 17mfc35-4/

if you don’t want bohter ordering drivers from variuos supliers you can use same brand visaton woofer- http://www.visaton.de/en/chassis_zubeho ... 70s_4.html

its not such high quality as SB acoustics but still will be better than originals.


keep in mind you again will need grind that plastic tube from 143 to 145mm to fit this woofers. also this time you will need to do larger “surgery” cut the hole in that plactic citron tube for magnet-it will not fit otherwise- woofer depths is 75mm. you can solve this problem cutting whole back of this palstic ,to enlarge in leght by 20-30mm it and glue back. its not so vital important in back doors(seems watter problem in the front doors mainly) but still care should be taken.
someone said those palstic protect woofer from “breath” but its not true. as long as there is air low frequencies wawes travels freely (yet we can have some midrange resonanses because this tube , but its not significant) unless we talking about 12inch subwoofer with 55mm excursion.


LEVEL 3- everything the same as in LEVEL1 or LEVEL2 but front tweeters replaced with high quality ,

any small neodymium tweeters can be used like this one specialy for car
http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com ... Itemid=363

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com ... Itemid=364

but they cost quite much and price performance ratio is low
bettter solution is tweeters like this
http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/pr ... nc-c000-4/
its not only cheaper but its parameters (fs 680Hz) superior for reproducing upper midrange and this VITAL to our case when we just run simple 6.8uf cap as tweeter filter- a tweeter with lower Fs will sound more smoother with such simple xover we have in our c5.

again you can grind and glue tweeters to original c5 plastic in corners.


LEVEL 4. for anyone having original hi fi amplifer (like vborovic have) and wanting some seriuos performance with not much money spent there is ability to fit 8 inch subwoofers in rear doors- alowable depth is 170mm –almost any 8inch subwoofer can be fit. But with condition that dedicated podium will be made. as 8inch drivers have minim internal space of 185mm podium rings should be made like horn- first ring nearest to woofer 185mm internal, second one 177 or so, third one 170mm or so . MIND- this is theoretical sizes – I was plkanned from the beginng this woofers but I do not have hi-fi amplifier also after all those upgrades I do not have patience to make podium to make perfect seal with door trims- anytone who dissasembles c5 speakers plastic tubes noticed that they are not staight -have some angle and it would take quite time to measure and recreate original angle.

originaly I was planned for this woofer- http://www.beyma.com/products/lowmidfrequency/108P3FEN8

its again not 8ohms but very high eficienty and pretty low fs

another alternatives is 4 ohm subwoofers (less quality but better/louder for car amplifers)

http://www.daytonaudio.com/specs/specsh ... od=295-484

http://www.daytonaudio.com/specs/specsh ... od=295-200

or any other 8inch 4 ohm woofers which have not so big voice coil , decent eficienty and low fs (40-50hz) do not go with hughe voice coils – its just for very powerfull amps and eficieny is low- small power internal amplifers or even external amplifer c5 have no such power.


if anyone wants very high quality sound in front this midrange is way better than Visatn bg17

http://www.beyma.com/products/lowmidfrequency/10605ND8

its already high end area in car. but once you break in to the door trim spent time aditional 100-150 hundred euro is not so much. I did mistake by ordering “from the eye” this driver with large ferrite magnet http://www.beyma.com/products/lowmidfrequency/106MI908

and it did not fit because of depth. I had no time reroder and wait again 2 wek of delivery. if I would do from zero definitely order neodymium version insteat of visaton bg17 ( 110 eur vs 18eur thought..)

also there can be fullrange coxial speakers in rear doors , but i woudl prefer subwoofer version. a coxial can be fing in visaton webpage as well

but as I told even LEVEL1 brings car sonic to completely another level.

have fun with mods!

vborovicfan
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Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 13:06

Re: General upgrade for C5 x7

Post by vborovicfan » 13 Mar 2016, 13:37

vborovic wrote:Any chance that one of you could send one old genuine door speaker (woofer) to my address? I can pay for the shipping via PayPal. I've found several speakers on sale on ebay, price starting from 10€, but the shipping tag is killing it ... the speaker doesn't event have to be working, I'd just like to do some measurements and try to find the speaker which would not need cutting out the plastic cup holder.
no need to ship or sell - i will measure it tommorrow. woofers with 50mm DEPTH still fits in original plastic cups(but you need to grind a bit plastic as all 6.5 inch woofers have 145-156mm needed WIDTH space)