1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Stickyfinger wrote:From what I understand, it is carbonized diesel/oil mix. A chemical engineer (Classic Jag racer) once explained to me that with older mineral oils, the carbon particular formation was like a snow ball, round and layered. With Synthetic oils in the mix, it forms in a laminar shard-like form, this is harder to flush as it locks together. He exclusively only used Castor or 100% mineral dependent on the race......

Are you sure it's not debris from the broken turbo, it was on my 2004 2.0 HDI, my oil pick up was just like the one pictured, unfortunately after cleaning it all out, flushing the system and changing the filters it ran fine for a few weeks then threw up a low oil pressure warning and started to knock, I suspect there's a blockage in the oil galleries.

It's now been sitting on my yard since before Christmas waiting for me to make my mind up what to do next. (See my post 'Offers invited' in the for sale and wanted forum.)
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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by Peter.N. »

It does actually state in the C5 Haynes manual that the oil in the diesels should be changed every 6000 miles, it also states "Frequent oil changes are the most important preventative maintenance the DIY home mechanic can give the engine ..."

I am wholeheartedly in agreement with that. Surely whatever it is that is contaminating the oil won't cause as many problems if its frequently removed, if I had a 1.6 Hdi I would certainly be changing the oil every 6000 miles or even 5000 given their history, its a lot cheaper than a new turbo.

I only change the oil in my 2.0. 8 valves every 8000 miles because they are a very clean burning engine and have a larger sump capacity than the 1.6, the oil at 8000 miles is no dirtier than at 5000 in the XUD engine.

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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

When my company van is serviced the mechanic jacks up the nearside by quite a way to help get as much oil out as possible. Fortunately my van is one where they had recognised the problem, and had fitted the newer banjo bolt with the long filter (amongst other things).
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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by Stickyfinger »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
Stickyfinger wrote:From what I understand, it is carbonized diesel/oil mix. A chemical engineer (Classic Jag racer) once explained to me that with older mineral oils, the carbon particular formation was like a snow ball, round and layered. With Synthetic oils in the mix, it forms in a laminar shard-like form, this is harder to flush as it locks together. He exclusively only used Castor or 100% mineral dependent on the race......

Are you sure it's not debris from the broken turbo, it was on my 2004 2.0 HDI, my oil pick up was just like the one pictured, unfortunately after cleaning it all out, flushing the system and changing the filters it ran fine for a few weeks then threw up a low oil pressure warning and started to knock, I suspect there's a blockage in the oil galleries.

It's now been sitting on my yard since before Christmas waiting for me to make my mind up what to do next. (See my post 'Offers invited' in the for sale and wanted forum.)
In this case I would agree, they be shiny bits . I was talking about the carbon contamination of the oil which is the reason (it seems) that the turbo and other oil feeds and pick-ups/filter get blocked giving the above result.
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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by uncle buck »

I've been around and worked on various diesel engines in cars, vans & trucks over the years and not one of them has dirtied the oil as fast as the 1.6HDI following an oil and filter change.

We all know that the oil in a diesel engine doesn't stay clean as long as in a petrol engine but with this engine it's as black as the old oil within a couple of days.

You can never remove all of the old oil from any engine, there will always be a little remaining but this engine design takes it to a whole new level, with reports of around 500 ml of old oil remaining within the engine in various locations but mainly the sump with its inward recessed drain plug :shock:


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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by Lighty »

Blimey, not been here for a day or two, and loads of questions.
No idea what causes it tbh, I have a feeling that DPF is high on the list, and injector seals. Next is EGR,& then low oil capacity.
The Citroen dispatch van has a sump sandwich plate that increases capacity, and these seem to be more reliable.
Basically if you change the oil every 6 k , and don't sit for hours in traffic! and don't do loads of short trips where the engine never gets properly hot! you will be ok. If some or all of the above apply, buy a petrol.
P.s it was a 110 bhp C4 Picasso.
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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by citroenxm »

uncle buck wrote:I've been around and worked on various diesel engines in cars, vans & trucks over the years and not one of them has dirtied the oil as fast as the 1.6HDI following an oil and filter change.




Cheers.
Uncle Buck, I can tell you WHY 1.6 engines in 16v form dirty their oil straight after an oil change..

Because of TWO Stupid design ideas!! Firstly the first one is solvable by which I beleve a replacment sump is avaliable with inverted DOWNWARD drain plug! The original in indented upwards into the sump this allowing about a quarter of old oil to remain in the sump after a drain! It cant go uphill! :-D :wink:

Secondly, the 16v head design internally under the rocker fingers is such that another almost half litre remains in two large areas above cylinder 1 and 4 in the head, which ALSO does not drain away after a change!!

8v engines drain far easier, as theres less internal area for the oil to sit, and in the case of the 8v HDi 2.0 engine the sump plug is on a bottom edge, so effecivily ALL oil can be drained from these older better engines.

So, this I find is WHY the oil blackens so soon after a change, theres too much old oil still IN the engine after a drain.
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by citroenxm »

Lighty wrote:Blimey, not been here for a day or two, and loads of questions.
No idea what causes it tbh, I have a feeling that DPF is high on the list, and injector seals. Next is EGR,& then low oil capacity.
The Citroen dispatch van has a sump sandwich plate that increases capacity, and these seem to be more reliable.
Basically if you change the oil every 6 k , and don't sit for hours in traffic! and don't do loads of short trips where the engine never gets properly hot! you will be ok. If some or all of the above apply, buy a petrol.
P.s it was a 110 bhp C4 Picasso.
DPF wont help, but I think ultimatly from reading around its injector clamp bolts therefore seals that cause it all..

Think about this: PSA DO NOT advise checking the injector clamp bolt tightness's at service.. do a search, see how many failed engines you will find.

Slightly less so with Ford in the fiesta and Focus.

HOWEVER, volvo also use this engine in the V/C 40's etc. Now, Volvo DO reccomend a tightness check at service in the clamps, now, do a search for Volvo 1.6 diesels, and see how many failed engines you find in them... last time I looked ZERO! None.

That to me explains a few things, I think. And yes - it IS the same engine..
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Post by addo »

I believe the oil is "damaged" in the head by high temperatures. DPF and leaky injectors being high on the suspect list.
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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by uncle buck »

citroenxm wrote:Uncle Buck, I can tell you WHY 1.6 engines in 16v form dirty their oil straight after an oil change..

Because of TWO Stupid design ideas!! Firstly the first one is solvable by which I beleve a replacment sump is avaliable with inverted DOWNWARD drain plug! The original in indented upwards into the sump this allowing about a quarter of old oil to remain in the sump after a drain! It cant go uphill! :-D :wink:

Secondly, the 16v head design internally under the rocker fingers is such that another almost half litre remains in two large areas above cylinder 1 and 4 in the head, which ALSO does not drain away after a change!!

8v engines drain far easier, as theres less internal area for the oil to sit, and in the case of the 8v HDi 2.0 engine the sump plug is on a bottom edge, so effecivily ALL oil can be drained from these older better engines.

So, this I find is WHY the oil blackens so soon after a change, theres too much old oil still IN the engine after a drain.
Hi,
yeah we've had this conversation before, I also noticed the area in the head that holds the oil .

I'm interested in the replacement sump....you got any details?


Cheers.
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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by citroenxm »

No I have not actually, I think RichardW might of fitted one, and know about it..
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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by RichardW »

Not I - I just refitted the old one, complete with up turned plug. Someone else beat the plug on theirs out flat - there's some pics somewhere.
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Re: 1.6 HDI oil pick up issues

Post by uncle buck »

I know Axa pressed the sump recess out so it was outward facing instead of inward.

I spotted a new sump on ebay that has the recess facing outwards and what appears to be a larger size drain plug, the seller has it listed to fit a Berlingo 1.6 HDI or other HDI's.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/citroen-berli ... _95wt_1181" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm wondering where it came from, as looking on citroen service the Berlingo sump is the same sump as listed for any of the 1.6 HDI's with the recess facing inwards....so I'm guessing it's an aftermarkt item?


Cheers.
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Post by Axa »

After pressing out the recess around the plug, I can now fill 4litres instead of around 3,75.

I also overfill the engine 0,1-0,2L without any problem so far. I've heard there is a replacement oil dipstick with higher marks. Do anyone know more about that?
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