Eolys?

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detheridge
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Re: Eolys?

Post by detheridge » 12 Jun 2019, 10:28

Many thanks for the info Marc. The garage did the investigation and after all it's the level sensor in the additive tank itself that's at fault. As it's an 'obsolete' part they can't source a replacement. Does anyone know of an updated part that will replace the additive tank on a 2003 C5?

David.

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: Eolys?

Post by GiveMeABreak » 12 Jun 2019, 10:56

I do need your VIN, so that I can check the part number.

detheridge
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Re: Eolys?

Post by detheridge » 12 Jun 2019, 17:39

Right - finally got it! VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

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Re: Eolys?

Post by GiveMeABreak » 12 Jun 2019, 18:48

Better get a coffee... :-D

Ok, so the fuel additive tank IS available from Citroen, which should contain all the components, as the additive pump cannot be separated from the tank (note the pump is in the additive tank, but the additive injector is in the fuel tank). Item (9) below Part No: 1500Y7, priced £283.73 inc. VAT.
Eloys D Etheridge.PNG
For information the following is the fuel system and components for your engine. You can see at the bottom of the diagram, 39 (additive Tank), 40, (Low Additive Level Sensor) and 41 (Additive Injection Pump).
Fuel System.png
ReferenceDesignation
1Additional Heater Control Relay
2Additional Heating (Electrical Resistors (2a) Or Heater (2b)) (*)
3Variable Geometry Turbocharger
4Air Flow Meter Air Temperature Sensor
5Air Cleaner
6Catalytic Converter
7Particle Filter
8Exhaust Gas Temperature Sensor (Downstream Of The Catalytic Converter)
9Differential Pressure Sensor
10Exhaust Gas Temperature Sensor (Upstream Of The Catalytic Converter)
11Turbocharging Pressure Regulation Solenoid Valve
12Recycling Regulation Electrovalve (EGR)
13Finned Diffuser Piston Control Pneumatic Capsule
14Exhaust Gas Recycling Valve (EGR)
15Water-To-Air Heat Exchanger (Inlet Air Heating)
16Exhaust Gas/Water Exchanger (EGR)
17Inlet Air Heater Throttle Control Electrovalve
18Atmospheric Pressure Sensor (Integrated In The Injection ECU)
19Injection ECU
20Heated Rear Screen
21Stability Control ECU (*)
22Automatic Gearbox ECU (*)
23Trip Computer (*)
24Electronic Tachometer
25Service LED
26Pre-Heating Warning Light
27Diagnostic Warning Lamp
28Fuel Level Indicator
29Fan
30Air Conditioning Compressor
31Engine Coolant Temperature Warning Light
32Engine Coolant Temperature Gauge
33Built-In Systems Interface
34Cruise Control Switch
35Cruise Control Safety Contact
36Cruise Control Switch
37Switch Module (At The Steering Wheel)
38Fuel Additive ECU
39Additive Tank
ReferenceDesignation
40Low Additive Level Sensor
41Additive Injection Pump
42Fuel Tank
43Additive Injector
44Booster Pump (Low Pressure)
45Electric Fuel Heater
46Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor
47Plug (Overflow)
48Safety Valve
49Fuel Tank Cap Presence Sensor (*)
50Centralised Diagnostic Socket
51Battery
52Injection Double Relay (Engine Relay Unit)
53Vehicle Speed Sensor
54Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor
55Clutch Pedal Switch
56Brake Pedal Switch
57Pre-Post Heat Box
58Fuel Cooler
59Fuel Filter
60Engine Speed Sensor
61Camshaft Position Sensor
62Pre-Heater Plugs
63Fuel High Pressure Common Injection Rail
64High Pressure Fuel Sensor
65Fuel Temperature Sensor
66High Pressure Fuel Regulator
67High Pressure Fuel Pump
683rd Piston Deactivator On The High Pressure Fuel Pump
69Diesel Injectors
70"Swirl" Control Electrovalve
71"Swirl" Control Diaphragm
72Inlet Air Heater Throttle
73Throttle Butterfly Housing (EGR)
74Air/Air Heat Exchanger
75Throttle Housing Control Electrovalve (EGR)
76Inlet Manifold Pressure Sensor

A more detailed diagram below shows the Additive Level Sensor (2) inside the Additive Pump:
Additive Tank Level Sensor.PNG
Now here's the part I was mentioning earlier about the backup strategy...

Low Additive Level Sensor

The sensor informs the additive ECU that the minimum additive level has been reached when there is 0.3 litres in the additive tank.
Depending on the information received, the additive ECU informs the engine injection ECU.

The injection ECU informs the BSI which requests activation of the following components:
Request to flash the service LED on the control panel (*)
Request to display a message on the multifunction screen (*)
Note: 0.3 litres of additive leaves an additive margin corresponding to filling up 6 times with 80 litres of fuel (*).

So here are the description of the Backup Modes - this is what I mentioned earlier when you will get reduced power kicking in so many miles after the fault.

The injection system manages the following back-up modes: An operating mode with a reduced fuel flow.
Reduced fuel flow: This back-up operating mode limits fuel flow, and the engine speed cannot under any circumstances exceed 2200 rpm (and fuel flow injected less than 30 mm3).
The injection system switches to "reduced flow" mode when a fault is present on one of the following components:
  • Clogged particle filter
  • Holed particle filter
  • Exhaust gas temperature sensors (upstream and downstream of the catalytic converter) (*)
  • Differential pressure sensor (*)
(*) 200 km after the fault appears.

Fuel additive function - Operation in degraded modes:
  • 3 main strategies are used if the additive systems develops faults
  • Fuel filler cap faulty
  • The additive ECU uses the vehicle speed information and the fuel sender information to inject additive
  • Fuel sender fault
  • The additive ECU adds an amount of additive equal to that added for a fuel tank When the fuel filler cap is opened/closed
  • Communications fault on the multiplexed VAN network
  • The additive ECU adds an amount of additive equal to that added for a fuel tank When communications are interrupted for more than 10 seconds
And lastly, as I mentioned before, the later additive ECU dumped the additive sensor level function - so although it will be present in the tank, the ECU will ignore this information.

Fuel Additive ECU Modifications
Main changes:
  • Discontinuation of the additive minimum level sensor
  • Addition of a 2nd additive counter
Note: The 2nd additive counter measures the quantity of additive deposited in the particle filter since the last filling of the additive tank.

Minimum level of additive reached
The additive ECU permanently calculates the theoretical level in the additive reservoir (fuel quantity is counted from 0 to 100,8 g).

So what I'm trying to say, according to your RPO, you have the later Additive ECU. That should mean the Additive Sensor shown in the main diagram is no longer taken into account by the new Additive ECU software - so it should not matter if the additive sensor in the additive tank is working or not. Does this make sense?

Note: Clicking on any of the diagrams will zoom and clarify them.

detheridge
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Re: Eolys?

Post by detheridge » 12 Jun 2019, 21:12

Marc,
Many thanks for the comprehensive info - much appreciated. However, the garage filled up the additive tank yesterday, and today it STILL flashed up the low level warning - might it be a software problem in the additive ECU? My garage's diagnostic guy reported that he couldn't get his diagbox to talk to the level sensor. So if the ECU's not taking into account the level sensor, that's to be expected?
The car's running fine, with no other warnings on this. So do I need a new additive tank after all or is it 'just one of those things'? If I remember to get the additive level checked every 10-20k would I be able to live with it as is, or would that be risking damage to the particle filter? The garage say they can always do a forced regeneration for me as and when needed.

Best wishes,
David.

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Re: Eolys?

Post by GiveMeABreak » 12 Jun 2019, 21:35

Did they follow the correct procedure to attempt to reset it? This is an earlier system so is a bit specific.

Just another thought, given that you might not know the history of this C5, I’m wondering if at some point in the past whether the Additive ECU has already been replaced...... and if it has from a previous filling operation, then has it been replaced with a first generation ECU (before the modified version that was originally fitted on your car)? Just a thought. But I think the best and cheapest option would be to try and replace the additive ECU and do the reset procedure. That may rule out the ECU.

detheridge
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Re: Eolys?

Post by detheridge » 12 Jun 2019, 22:04

Is there a way of telling which version ECU is fitted via a diagbox, or do you take it out and look at the part number?

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Re: Eolys?

Post by GiveMeABreak » 12 Jun 2019, 22:23

Either way. Run a global test using Lexia; when complete, scroll down the list of ECUs and locate the additive ECU EAS100 or EAS200 I think. Selecting that, should provide further info and will provide the software version also. Let me know what you find or better still get a screenshot of the info and post it here.

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Re: Eolys?

Post by howardaskew » 03 Jul 2019, 22:59

I think I have your fix.

Use Lexia and tell the car that you have replaced the Additive ECU.
I did not replace it but this cured the fault. I think I may have lied and said I had replaced the DPF also.
Computer's are stupid. They can do simple stuff quickly. They are yet to build a computer that matches the Human Brain.
This worked permanently for my Wife's car. Unfortunately 9 months later she had a collision with a Peugeot.
My Wife had a Mk1 C5 Auto Exclusive 2.2HDI 2003.

Good luck.

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Re: Eolys?

Post by myglaren » 03 Jul 2019, 23:21

howardaskew wrote:
03 Jul 2019, 22:59

Computer's are stupid. They can do simple stuff quickly. They are yet to build a computer that matches the Human Brain.


Indeed they are. I had a chat with an AI this morning.

Stupid thing. Alexa beats it hands down but that's not saying much.

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Re: Does anyone run a C5 X7 diesel estate?

Post by JohnD » 15 Aug 2019, 10:07

One further question, if I may Marc! A few days ago you wrote, "On this engine, they only fill the additive tank with 1.57 litres at the factory. The following table indicates the estimated additive fluid remaining at the stated mileages. My question, - - Is that 1.57 litres in a 3ltr size tank or a tank which just holds 1.57ltrs? In other words do I buy 2ltrs or 3 ltrs.?

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Re: Eolys?

Post by GiveMeABreak » 15 Aug 2019, 11:19

(I've moved your post from the other Topic, as it really belongs here in the Eolys Thread. I would of moved the others but there are too many intertwined now :roll: :-D )

It's a 3.5 additive tank John. It has the same part number (1500NK) as the following C5 X7 Diesels in the table below.

Each engine has different factory-filled levels - as each has a different engine ECU and engine capacity / EURO standard.

Citroen C5 (X7) Engines Diesel Additive Tank, Factory-Filled Levels:
Engine TypeEngine CapacityLevel of Additive Filled at Factory
DT20C3.0L2.4L
DT17TED42.7 L3.5L
DW12BTED42.2 L2.7L
DW10BTED42.0 L3.1L
DW10CTED42.0L1.57L
DV6TED41.6L2.45L
DV6C1.6L1.34L
Don't order more than you need for the job at hand!
Cerine is an organic based substance and degrades in contact with the ambient air and natural light.

Once opened, oxygen, moisture and dust from the air will accelerate degradation and will affect the the characteristics of the Cerine. An unopened original container has a shelf life of 5 years. It's another reason why they recommend the filling kit is not reused as it can contain contaminated residue from previous filling operations.

Bear in mind they recommend using hydrocarbon resistant gloves when handling this stuff as it is nasty stuff if it gets on your skin.

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Re: Eolys?

Post by JohnD » 15 Aug 2019, 17:31

Thanks for that Marc!

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Re: Does anyone run a C5 X7 diesel estate?

Post by JohnD » 18 Aug 2019, 10:47

Sorry Marc! I'm back with more questions. A few days ago Peter asked the question, "Secondly Eolys fluid, do you have to fill it right up or can you partially fill it and set the ECU accordingly............................... You replied, "Always top up the additive ECU until it is full - as you have to reset the additive counter to zero - then it knows the tank is full.......................... Now in the "Eolys" topic you showed a chart giving the factory-filled levels of fluid. My X7 with a DW10CTED4 engine is shown as only having 1.57ltrs of fluid in the tank when it left the factory. So my question - have I got a smaller tank or is it a normal tank but only half full? With 65000 miles on the clock, the tank level must be getting quite low, although it's lasted nearly 10 years. I don't mind refilling with three litres but if it's going to last for the next 20 years, it occurs to me that I'll be having my 110th birthday by then. :rofl2:

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Re: Eolys?

Post by GiveMeABreak » 18 Aug 2019, 12:58

No, same sized tank John. Different engines have different systems and for example the DW10CTED4 engine has lots of design modifications to ensure the engine temperature is reached more quickly, - all to do with better fuel economy and meeting later Euro standards, so probably requires less additive to be injected as assisted regeneration may be required less frequently. So the factory put less in because it will use less over similar mileages.

In your case, approx. 456ml per 18,750 miles under 'severe' operating conditions is the expected. So you will likely get a bit longer if the assisted regenerations are fewer.