New member- prob with management light on 98 xantia 1.9td

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

transit-v8
Posts: 3
Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 16:19

New member- prob with management light on 98 xantia 1.9td

Post by transit-v8 » 20 Apr 2009, 23:08

Hi all. Ive owned my 1998 face lift xantia 1.9td for just over a year now and love the car but it now has developed a problem. In the last 1000 miles the engine management light has flashed every now and again causing no running problems but on Sunday the light came on permanently causing it to go into limp home mode. How common is this on these cars and what could be a cheapish cure? The car is well serviced with just 88k and the cam belt was replaced at 60k. There didn't seem to be a run up to it, it just happened. Please be gentle as I'm no good with computers or cars.

Many thanks
Andy

citronut
Posts: 10938
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
x 3

Post by citronut » 21 Apr 2009, 08:38

hello Andy
and welcome to this forum

the first thing to do would be get the car pluged into a LEXIA to read the fault codes,

there are a few of us on here with DIS_LEXIA's

regards malcolm

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41564
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1056

Post by CitroJim » 21 Apr 2009, 08:58

Welcome Andy :D

This problem is very likely to be failure of the Needle Lift Sensor on No.3 Injector. Look at the injectors and look for the one with a thin black wire and folow it unil you reach its plug/socket.

Separate the plug/socket and check the resistance of the sensor. It'll be around 100 ohms if the sensor is OK. Sometines the problem is a bad connection at the plug/socket.

If the sensor reads OK, the TDC sensor may be faulty. This is located on top of the gearbox bellhousing. It in itself rearely fail but its brown connector is a bit exposed to muck. Off the top of my head I cannot recall the resistance of the TDC sensor.

If that does not find the issue, come back and we can offer some more guidance and a crde method of seeing if the sensors are good.

Question? Is your tacho working?

citronut
Posts: 10938
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
x 3

Post by citronut » 21 Apr 2009, 13:19

Jim said
"brown connector is a bit exposed to muck Off the top of my head"

TEA HE

regards malcolm

transit-v8
Posts: 3
Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 16:19

Post by transit-v8 » 21 Apr 2009, 13:35

Thanks for the tips, will look a little later. Yes mate speedo works fine.
Andy

User avatar
Xaccers
Posts: 7654
Joined: 08 Feb 2007, 00:46
x 3

Post by Xaccers » 21 Apr 2009, 14:10

transit-v8 wrote:Thanks for the tips, will look a little later. Yes mate speedo works fine.
Andy
I take it you mean your tacho/rev counter is also working fine :)

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41564
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1056

Post by CitroJim » 21 Apr 2009, 19:45

The reason I asked if the tacho was working OK was because it can give clues as to sensor health :D

Try disconnecting the needle lift sensor with the engine idling. If it is working, the engine not will dramatically change. If nothing happen, you can assume the needle lift sensor is dead. If the tacho still works with the needle lift sensor disconnected, you can assume the TDC sensor is working.

If disconnecting the needle lift sensor stops the tacho and results in no change in engine note, assume the TDC sensor is duff.

An explanation for this is that one or the other of the sensors must be working for the tacho to work.

If all that fails to disgnose the issue then do find a friendly Lexia owner to run a diagnostic test on it.

Another issue may be the loom to the ECU. Kev (Red_Dwarfers) has a good story to relate about this :D

red_dwarfers
donor 2017
Posts: 2522
Joined: 29 May 2008, 15:59
x 18

Post by red_dwarfers » 21 Apr 2009, 21:07

Hi Andy,
Welcome to the forum!

As Jim was saying, I had a bit of fun with this scenario and it turned out to be the ECU Connector, which is on the off side of the engine bay in a plastic box.

Here's the thread for your amusement - http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=24807

transit-v8
Posts: 3
Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 16:19

Post by transit-v8 » 23 Apr 2009, 01:05

Hi given the car a few little tests but it looks like it may need to get pluged in as now its a little lumpy on tickover and is now smokey :cry:

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41564
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1056

Post by CitroJim » 24 Apr 2009, 06:01

Andy, you have a PM :wink:

ACTIVE8
Posts: 2317
Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 17:49
x 1

Post by ACTIVE8 » 24 Apr 2009, 12:26

This is the Lexia link, and I am sure some helpful member will LX8 your car.

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41564
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1056

Post by CitroJim » 24 Apr 2009, 12:37

ACTIVE8 wrote: I am sure some helpful member will LX8 your car.
Already in hand :D That is the subject of the PM above. Andy, or rather his parents, live barely a Swallow's flight from me!

ACTIVE8
Posts: 2317
Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 17:49
x 1

Post by ACTIVE8 » 24 Apr 2009, 13:30

I was guessing that might be the case, but I did not want to presume. :wink:

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41564
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1056

Post by CitroJim » 24 Apr 2009, 20:30

Just arrived back from taking a look at Andy's car and it's an interesting one.

The Lexia showed a few faults. Needle Lift, TDC sensor and a pump timing control fault. The first two could be discounted on account of Andy and his dad testing the two sensors earlier. Both sensors are now proved good.

The engine is incredibly hard to start and when it does eventually struggle into life it runs extremely lumpily and won't idle.

The Lexia Timing Actuator test failed; the pump would not respond to timing adjustments at all.

Checking, we found the primer bulb went rock-hard after a few squeezes. That is not right on a Bosch so we checked the fuel return line was clear. It was but there was no diesel issuing from the return line at all, however hard the primer was squeezed. In case there was a blockage on the supply side, we loosened the inlet banjo on the pump and fuel sprayed out at some pressure, showing ample fuel there.

The diagnosis is that something has gone seriously wrong inside the pump. It appears to be blocked internally and will not flow fuel through it. Our last thought was to check the return line banjo on the pump in case that is blocked but time precluded that. Andy will check that tomorrow. It does have a small hole that could conceivably become blocked fairly easily.

If that is not the problem, it's a pump off job and see what has gone wrong inside.

The timing is not functioning as the pump is struggling to pump and cannot develop enough hydraulic pressure to drive the timing device.

Just before Andy removes the pump, is there anything I've missed here that could account for this problem?

EDIT: Andy, the fifth post in this thread shows my pump sprocket puller. As I said, don't hesitate to give me a call, only too happy to help.

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41564
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1056

Post by CitroJim » 25 Apr 2009, 17:56

Andrew checkd the fuel return line banjo and found the restrictor blocked. The car now runs better but it is still not right. We gave it another Lexia session this afternoon and found the timing device is solidly stuck in the fully retarded position so the engine, although running better, now displays all the symptoms of running very retarded.

We went through everything to prove the pump is at fault. ECU swapped, wiring checked and timing electrovalve checked. No change. Kev, I used your old ECU. It works despite those two missing pins!!!

In conclusion, it looks as if the pump has a blocked hydraulic passage in the region of the timing device causing it to push hard against the end-stop. The fuel passages that control the piston that drives the timing ring are very fine and if the fuel return restrictor was blocked, it's almost a dead certainty that one of the fine timing passages are blocked with some debris too; maybe even the fine gauze filter on the tip of the timing electrovalve.

The pump has to come off and must be de-armoured even to get at the timing electrovalve. Andrew got a quote today for armour removal only from a diesel specialist....

£150 :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: I'm in the wrong job! At those prices, I really ought to fabricate a drilling template, get some tough drills and make a killing!!!

He is now considering his options. I've suggested getting hold of a mechanical VP20 as a stop-gap whilst he gets the original pump repaired.

An interesting afternoon :)