5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

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LoveHate5008
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5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by LoveHate5008 »

Hi,

I've owned my 5008 for many years now, I mostly drive around town however rack up close to 80 miles a a day as a part of my trade. The car has reached 110,000 miles and around 6 months ago what felt like a clutch slip began in forth gear. Later on it progressively got worse and now the gear slip / fail to engage is happening in 2nd gear and is becoming unbearable so this must be sorted.

After some googling, I had the gearbox oil changed which helped for a few weeks but the problem returned. Leaving me to assume its on its final legs and definitely requiring a rebuild.

I had an estimate from Peugeot for £1.800. Other local mechanics quotes around £1,400-£1,600.

Can anyone here recommend a garage that they have had their gearboxes worked on and how much they where charged for the repair?

I would appreciate all the help I can get as I don't want to spend to much sorting this out if it could have been done for a better price.

Thanks!
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Post your VIN up so we can determiner the exact gearbox you have.
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by LoveHate5008 »

Hey Marc,

Here you go: VF3**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

If anyone here has actually had the work done themselves, or are mechanics themselves, this is a better assurance for me over a dealer or mechanic, as you would know what your doing from experience. I've had so many cowboys work on my cars over the years its hard looking back on it now. I just want to know that its done properly first time by a bloke who knows what he's doing without hesitation, that's all really.

Thanks! O:)
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Automatic Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by xantia_v6 »

I have edited this post following confirmation that you don't have an automatic transmission. Generally it is no longer relevant.

If the transmission was an AM6 (unfortunately not). given the symptoms you describe it would probably require a valve block, a couple of clutch packs and a torque converter refurb to repair it, so the estimates you have been give seem reasonable.

I would however suggest that it might make economic sense to just get a lower-mileage second hand transmission (including torque converter) fitted, as these transmissions are usually very reliable, and you have been unlucky with yours. If going down that route, make sure you get an identical transmission (ratios and other specs vary with car and engine type), and that you have the transmission ECU software updated to the latest version.
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Before you spend a fortune can I suggest that you double check that the box has sufficient oil, if this box (AM6) has the oil level even marginally low the drive will slip, especially on turns as the oil slops away from the pick up.

My experience is different to yours, I bought a car without the gearbox and had to find one, if you search for my thread 'On my walk' you will find the whole story.

It's a long chatty thread :) viewtopic.php?f=2&t=57880&hilit=On+my+walk
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by GiveMeABreak »

As now confirmed by VIN, the OP does NOT have an automatic gearbox. He has a piloted manual 6 speed.

I would of posted this yesterday before the other replies, had I not had a chronic toothache, so was not about much yesterday :knackered:

5008 (T87E) ESTATE - LEISURE 1.6 HDI 115 (DV6C) piloted manual gearbox 6 (With stop and start)

@: LoveHate5008

So you need to forget what you thought you knew about this - and in case you are unfamiliar, a piloted manual system that you have on your car , is essentially a standard manual 6 speed box and clutch. The 'Piloted' system uses electronics and hydraulics to actually do the manual gear changing for you. So you don't actually have an automatic gearbox with torque converter. Here's a picture of the actuator unit:
lovehate.PNG

These systems are like any manual system - they need clutch replacements and also have dual mass flywheels. Slipping can be caused by either the clutch as you know or the DMF may be starting to break up.

In either case, get your wallet ready!

These systems can be quite complex to sort out and therefore understandably, the reluctance of some indy garages to undertake the job. This has been done by a member on C4 Picasso, so you might want to follow his 3 videos on what is involved in this operation and assuming it isn't otherwise just faulty.

A diagnostic with Diagbox would show up any fault codes, but in the absence of these, it may be standard clutch slip / DMF due to wear and tear.

Here's the guide from 'Chefslot' to give you an idea:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=61384&hilit=chef
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by LoveHate5008 »

Thanks for the response Marc. Just a brief update although a possibly regrettable one.

I took it to said indy mechanic a few days ago, albeit the same day I got the responses here so I didn't actually see them until I had dropped it off.

I got the car back today after many days of being delayed and to great disappointment, the car is jerky in reverse and first gear. It bounces around and lurches wildly at the slightest touch of the accelerator and then goes away. I was told it just needs a few days to "learn?" erm....

The guy then tells me that its the actuator, shocked I said to him was this not a part of the repair and he replied 'no" and that this is another £1100 to fix. :grr: The original quote from Peugeot included the actuator repair.

To note, to the best of my knowledge, I did not have this problem before, I only suffered the slippage problem.

With total regret, I am back here asking for some advice on this subject. What the hell do I do now?

I'm going to go back tomorrow and ask for the DPF and clutch that they took off, to check if there was any fault with it in the first place, or if it was just the actuator that was faulty from the start.

The bill I have is as follows:

# Clutch Kit
# Clutch Hydraulic Slave Cylinder
# Dual Mass Flywheel
# Dual Mass Flywheel Bolts

When I dropped it off to them on Saturday, they said they know of this problem and can sort it out. They also test drove it so they should have known for crying out loud!

Gutted.
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by LoveHate5008 »

Another thing to note, my Stop-Start is not working. Any relation?
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Aaggghh!

So sorry to hear about this.

Did the garage realise they had to initialise the clutch engaging point? There is a specif procedure that needs to be performed when replacing the clutch.

If they didn't know this or where not capable of doing it they should not have undertaken the work in the first place in my opinion and therefore you should get in contact with the Manager to tell them this. There may be nothing wrong with the Actuator, but it is essential that the following is performed and they should have known that they need Diagbox diagnostics to do this, which is what Peugeot use.

I don't have the English, but this is a translation, so if a few of the words are a bit weird you know why:
NOTE: This learning is done by a dynamic test of the vehicle. Perform this procedure in the following cases:
  • Replacing the clutch
  • Replacing: Steering actuator
  • Replacement: Manual gearbox computer controlled
  • Excessive skidding or jerking of the clutch
  • Download
Preliminary operations: Perform the following operations; Using the Diagnostic Tool (Diagbox):
Erasing Learns
Learning the Transmission Grid
Learning the Clutch Bite Point: Imperatively Cold Engine

Learning: Value of the engine torque transmitted to the clutch

Warming up the engine and clutch.

Start the vehicle lever on N, raise the speed to 2500 rpm (for EW10 wait 30 seconds before accelerating after engine start to avoid the degassing procedure) , to reach a temperature of engine water at 80 ° C. Allow the clutch temperature to stabilize at the same temperature as the engine.

Consult the water temperature according to the applications using the diagnostic tool (Exit the MCP learning menu to go to the motor menu).
EW10 (RFJ) and DW10 (RHJ): Injection / IGNITION => Measurement parameters => Measurements standard parameters => Cooling -
Air conditioning => Water temperature.

DV6 (9 HZ): Injection / IGNITION => Measurement parameters => Measurements standard parameters => Information filters with particles => Temperature of the water.

Visualization of the engine torque zone:
Once the heating has been completed, carry out the learning in a clear driving zone. Using the diagnostic tool, view the " engine torque" in the gearbox parameters:
Standard parameters, engine information, engine torque (1st line).

This procedure requires the accompaniment of another person.

Start learning
Carry out 5 vehicle takeoffs: Select the automatic mode at the gearshift selector.
Start (in 1st), fast acceleration in a zone of motor torque between 80 and 140Nm until the passage of the second report.
Stop the vehicle and start again.
Wait 5 minutes in neutral without stopping the engine. This operation allows the clutch to return to a functional temperature range .
Carry out 3 vehicle takeoffs: Select the automatic mode at the gearshift selector.
Start (first), fast acceleration in a motor torque zone between 80 and 140Nm until the passage of the second report.
Stop the vehicle and start again.

Validation of learning
Carry out a taxi passing all the reports (in auto mode) to check the absence of jerks, shock, slip, or delay in passing mainly on the ratio 2 to 3.
If OK: Switch off the ignition to memorize the learning.
Wait 60 seconds (Power Latch).
Carry out a road test to validate the memorization.

If the learning is not valid
Wait for 10 minutes in neutral without stopping the engine.
Carry out 3 vehicle takeoffs: Select the automatic mode at the gear selector speeds.
Start (in 1st), fast acceleration in a zone of motor torque between 80 and 140Nm until the passage of the second report.
Stop the vehicle and start again.
Carry out a taxi passing all the reports (in auto mode) to check the absence of jerks, shock, slip, or delay in the passage mainly on the ratio 2 to 3.

If OK: Turn off the ignition to memorise the learning.

Wait 60 seconds (Power Latch).
Carry out a road test to validate the memorization.

If learning is not valid again
Perform a learning reset and repeat the procedure at the beginning.
The Stop & Start system is dependent upon lots of factors coming together. It may be a coincidence, or, as a result of being in the garage and having short runs, being started and stopped whilst in there, insufficient running time, low battery etc. etc. - see conditions for Stop Start system in my 2 posts here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=60988&hilit=stop+start#p586730
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by RichardW »

All of which for the clutch biting point is basically saying pull away hard a few times - the diagbox is just to reference the engine torque and check that it's stuck. So nothing to loose by warming it up, and then doing a few hard starts to get it to adjust.
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by renagade »

LoveHate5008 wrote: 13 Mar 2019, 16:55 Hi,

I've owned my 5008 for many years now, I mostly drive around town however rack up close to 80 miles a a day as a part of my trade. The car has reached 110,000 miles and around 6 months ago what felt like a clutch slip began in forth gear. Later on it progressively got worse and now the gear slip / fail to engage is happening in 2nd gear and is becoming unbearable so this must be sorted.

After some googling, I had the gearbox oil changed which helped for a few weeks but the problem returned. Leaving me to assume its on its final legs and definitely requiring a rebuild.

I had an estimate from Peugeot for £1.800. Other local mechanics quotes around £1,400-£1,600.

Can anyone here recommend a garage that they have had their gearboxes worked on and how much they where charged for the repair?

I would appreciate all the help I can get as I don't want to spend to much sorting this out if it could have been done for a better price.

Thanks!

Hi, I dont think you have a problem with the actual gearbox as these are the standard 6 speeder's. [-X I had the self same problem with my citroen c5 with the piloted gearbox. It is a problem to us the owner that these cannot be worked on by any one it has to be cit/peu. as they have the computer to set it all up. I have just had a clutch and dual mass flywheel put in my car at a cost of £1020.00 in vat. The year before the car would not change gears and that was fixed at a cost of £2010. in vat . The first problem was the valve block that is bolted to the side of the gearbox.
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by GiveMeABreak »

They can be calibrated by anybody with a suitable Lexia or diagbox diagnostic tool and the ability to use it. And of course the knowledge on how to use it. But the process is not for the faint hearted if things go wrong. This is according to the technical documents of which a rough translation I’ve already posted previously. Some will of course suggest that it just needs to have the bite points set by several takeoffs rests and starts.

It’s very much depends on what the original problem is. If it’s a simple clutch and dual mass flywheel change then there shouldn’t be any problem as long as the clutch biting point is initiated after the change as per normal. This is a technical requirement.

If the system has an actual fault in any of the hydraulic actuator systems then of course it becomes more technical in finding out what the problem is and that will very likely be a separate issue. So these faults are not necessarily the same for every owner to be fair.
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by LoveHate5008 »

Just to post an update here, I did post this a few months back but strangely my reply is missing.

The problem was finally fixed with the above instructions, thanks to GiveMeABreak. The mechanic was sadly an idiot who claimed that the vehicle was self-learning and that the problem I described was a failing actuator that will cost another £1800 to repair.

I slapped the print out in front of him and he said "fine" and after a few hours of repeating the process I'd like to believe it has now sorted itself out. (99% sure, very very slight judder when switching between first>reverse and vice versa.)

So thanks to all, you saved me many headaches at the mercy of these bafoons who call themselves professionals. Top blokes! =D>
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Re: 5008 - 6 Speed Piloted Gearbox - Needs Rebuild

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Good news we hope. Sounds like he's worked on too many Fords and needs to think out the box :roll:
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