307 2.0hdi misfire
Moderator: RichardW
307 2.0hdi misfire
Hello all . I’m new to the forum and hope you can help. My wife 307 2.0hdi has a small misfire / hiccup when it’s cold. It ticks over lovely a smooth and revs ok. It’s fine when it’s warm. I have a code p1352 glow plug. I’ve changed the relay but haven’t had it code read since. Wouldn’t have thought glow plugs would cause a misfire as it starts fine.
Thanks in advance for any ideas etc.
Thanks in advance for any ideas etc.
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Peugeot 307 CC 2.0HDi 138BHP
Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
A few of my VW techs tell me hdi engines don't rely on glow plugs to start them and to be honest you have no chance of changing them they are in the most stupid place. The most inaccessible place is the back of the engine under the windscreen, and guess what.... Yep that's where they are!
My wife's 2.0 hdi an 07 plate has been doing this for 5 years turn it over starts fine, ticks over fine, go to the it it misses and flanks and smokes(black) winter or summer, only on 1st start up after about 30 seconds of tick over its fine revs nice, last year it's turbo started to fail so we changed it and an ideal opportunity to change glow plugs and we got 3 out of 4 in, excellent we thought job done.
Still does the starting thing hmmmm back to drawing board late last year air temp sensor was changed made no difference to starting procedure. Back to drawing board!
Early this year the swine gave up completely in the fast lane of the A55 first dropping into limp mode then complete failure, wife had to coast from the outside lane into hard shoulder, not a happy bunny in rush hour, turns out it was crank position sensor 1st implusable signal then faliure, AA code read it to get that fault, I got there and it started and drive fine? Yet it had to be towed off express way.
We change crank sensor and she runs fine again took us a few days to realise hang on she is starting and running fine!
Coisandence... No idea
Was crank sensor causing this.... No idea
Let's wait until winter returns and we'll see how "fixed" she really is.
That is just my experience, but if you r thinking of changing your plugs ring up your local pub dealer and ask them how hard are they, mine told me the techs run a mile and that's probably why last owner sold it.... Thanks i thought.
My wife's 2.0 hdi an 07 plate has been doing this for 5 years turn it over starts fine, ticks over fine, go to the it it misses and flanks and smokes(black) winter or summer, only on 1st start up after about 30 seconds of tick over its fine revs nice, last year it's turbo started to fail so we changed it and an ideal opportunity to change glow plugs and we got 3 out of 4 in, excellent we thought job done.
Still does the starting thing hmmmm back to drawing board late last year air temp sensor was changed made no difference to starting procedure. Back to drawing board!
Early this year the swine gave up completely in the fast lane of the A55 first dropping into limp mode then complete failure, wife had to coast from the outside lane into hard shoulder, not a happy bunny in rush hour, turns out it was crank position sensor 1st implusable signal then faliure, AA code read it to get that fault, I got there and it started and drive fine? Yet it had to be towed off express way.
We change crank sensor and she runs fine again took us a few days to realise hang on she is starting and running fine!
Coisandence... No idea
Was crank sensor causing this.... No idea
Let's wait until winter returns and we'll see how "fixed" she really is.
That is just my experience, but if you r thinking of changing your plugs ring up your local pub dealer and ask them how hard are they, mine told me the techs run a mile and that's probably why last owner sold it.... Thanks i thought.
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Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
HDIs use high compression to ignite the fuel, and only need the glow plugs to assist starting in very cold weather. They also do help the engine to get to temperature more quickly on startup. They also perform other functions though; they assist in regeneration if your vehicle has a particle filter.
A lot of people with HDIs tend to leave them for as long as poss before doing them as they can be a pain to get out as you have noted!
A lot of people with HDIs tend to leave them for as long as poss before doing them as they can be a pain to get out as you have noted!
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Marc
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and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
On HDi, do the GPs also have a post-heating function? Under cold conditions (usually sensed by coolant temp) this can operate for several minutes after starting, but won't on subsequent (warm) restarts later in the day.
What is the compression ratio on HDi which can achieve a GP-less start?
What is the compression ratio on HDi which can achieve a GP-less start?
Chris
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Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
Yes Chris, Pre and Post Heating Function. In common with many HDi owners, I have the 'Glow Plugs not Supplied fault' which has been on the car since I've owned her and on the previous C5 II - never bothered with it and the car starts first time in all weather. When I get round to it, I will be testing the Glow Plug Relay to see if the message is one of the acknowledged ghost faults. But generally, these are the reference values, the operation is determined by ECU, but in the case of my Delphi System specifically:
Reference values for the pre-heating time (in seconds)
Reference values for postheating time (in seconds)
Rail Pressures:
Reference values for the pre-heating time (in seconds)
- A: Atmospheric pressure in hectoPascals
- B: Coolant fluid temperature in degrees Celsius
B | A | A | A | A | A | A | A |
- | 700 hPa | 750 hPa | 800 hPa | 850 hPa | 900 hPa | 950 hPa | 1000 hPa |
-30 (°C) | 30 s | 30 s | 30 s | 30 s | 30 s | 30 s | 30 s |
-20 (°C) | 20 s | 20 s | 20 s | 20 s | 20 s | 20 s | 20 s |
-10 (°C) | 15 s | 15 s | 15 s | 15 s | 15 s | 15 s | 15 s |
0 (°C) | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s |
20 (°C) | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s |
30 (°C) | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s | 10 s |
60 (°C) | 7.5 s | 7.5 s | 7.5 s | 7.5 s | 7.5 s | 7.5 s | 7.5 s |
80 (°C) | 5 s | 5 s | 5 s | 5 s | 5 s | 5 s | 5 s |
Reference values for postheating time (in seconds)
- A: Atmospheric pressure in hectoPascals
- B: Coolant fluid temperature in degrees Celsius
B | A | A | A | A | A | A | A |
- | 700 hPa | 750 hPa | 800 hPa | 850 hPa | 900 hPa | 950 hPa | 1000 hPa |
-30 (°C) | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s |
-10 (°C) | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s |
0 (°C) | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s |
20 (°C) | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s | 180 s |
40 (°C) | 70 s | 70 s | 70 s | 70 s | 70 s | 70 s | 70 s |
80 (°C) | 0 s | 0 s | 0 s | 0 s | 0 s | 0 s | 0 s |
Rail Pressures:
Engine speed (rpm) | Rail pressure ( bar) | Flow injected (In kg/h) |
120 | 300 | 1.4 |
750 | 230 | 11 |
2000 | 1400 | 26.9 |
4000 | 1650 | 52.2 |
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Marc
Marc
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and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
So Atm pressure (normal 1000mPa and down to a low 700) has no effect on heating time, it's just a function of coolant temp - which makes sense.
What is the compression ratio? Previous engines were up to around 23:1, iirc.
Could be that HDi manages to atomise the injected fuel so finely that it takes less chamber-air heat to ignite it.
A failure of just one GP on earlier engines (eg XUD) would produce really lumpy cold starting, but if HDi has this advantage, maybe faulty GPs (and relays) could be tolerated, except in very cold conditions.
Result of a test on a car with a flagged fault would be interesting.
What is the compression ratio? Previous engines were up to around 23:1, iirc.
Could be that HDi manages to atomise the injected fuel so finely that it takes less chamber-air heat to ignite it.
A failure of just one GP on earlier engines (eg XUD) would produce really lumpy cold starting, but if HDi has this advantage, maybe faulty GPs (and relays) could be tolerated, except in very cold conditions.
Result of a test on a car with a flagged fault would be interesting.
Chris
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Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
This is very interesting. My GP light stays on only for about 5 or so seconds in the cold from memory despite that table showing that it should be on for 10s. Maybe it's happy to start after 5s but will actually keep them energised for 10s.
I'm assuming the post heating is conducted at a lower power level otherwise the glow plugs would be burnt out pretty quickly?
I'm assuming the post heating is conducted at a lower power level otherwise the glow plugs would be burnt out pretty quickly?
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Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
Sorry chaps, I'm painting the kitchen in between other jobs and catching up on the Brexit situation at present...
As for Postheating Elis:
The postheating starts as soon as the pre-heating phase is finished.
The pre-heating plugs are supplied without limit of power.
The length of activation of the plugs depends on the engine coolant temperature value, the atmospheric pressure (air density) as well as on the quantity of fuel injected (air temperature / fuel, air density).
The postheating stops in the following cases:
Postheating is used for loading the engine in order to bring the catalytic converter and/or the particle filter up to an optimal operating temperature as rapidly as possible.
Actions of postheating:
As for Postheating Elis:
The postheating starts as soon as the pre-heating phase is finished.
The pre-heating plugs are supplied without limit of power.
The length of activation of the plugs depends on the engine coolant temperature value, the atmospheric pressure (air density) as well as on the quantity of fuel injected (air temperature / fuel, air density).
The postheating stops in the following cases:
- The postheating time is exceeded
- The ideal value for the coolant temperature has been attained
- The value for the inlet air temperature is wrong
- The value for engine speed and load is too high
Postheating is used for loading the engine in order to bring the catalytic converter and/or the particle filter up to an optimal operating temperature as rapidly as possible.
Actions of postheating:
- Prolonging the operation of the pre-heater plugs after the starting phase
- Reducing the emissions of pollutants in the first few minutes after starting
- Reducing blue fumes especially at altitude
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Marc
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Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
The actual compression ratio on my 2.0 HDi is 18:1, but it's the high pressure injection system in the HDi common rail system - with the third generation Delphi system providing 2000 Bar or 29007.55 PSi max pressure that can atomise the fuel so efficiently, along with the precise timing of the injection that really makes the difference, with multiple injection processes per cylinder, per combustion.white exec wrote: ↑18 Sep 2018, 10:28 What is the compression ratio? Previous engines were up to around 23:1, iirc.
Could be that HDi manages to atomise the injected fuel so finely that it takes less chamber-air heat to ignite it.
A failure of just one GP on earlier engines (eg XUD) would produce really lumpy cold starting, but if HDi has this advantage, maybe faulty GPs (and relays) could be tolerated, except in very cold conditions.
Result of a test on a car with a flagged fault would be interesting.
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help
Marc
Marc
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Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
I see, so that's why my economy is about 10-20 mpg lower for the first couple of mins when driving
Just a point about the Delphi injection system, if yours can go to 2000 bar and is the third generation injection it presumably uses piezoelectric injectors.
As far as I'm aware on my RHR its max working pressure is 1600Bar and uses solenoid injectors... Presumably I've got the second generation Delphi system?
Just a point about the Delphi injection system, if yours can go to 2000 bar and is the third generation injection it presumably uses piezoelectric injectors.
As far as I'm aware on my RHR its max working pressure is 1600Bar and uses solenoid injectors... Presumably I've got the second generation Delphi system?
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Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
Couldn't say if they are solenoid or Piezo Elis - Bosch are typically 1350 (Gen 1) 1600 (Gen 2) & 2000+ (Gen 3) BAR respectively, with Denso Gen 1 at 1450 & Gen 2 at 1800+ and Delphi up to 2000. I know that in the early days, the French did stay with solenoid tech (whether fro penny pinching or not we don't know), but it's actually quite hard to find out the type of injector without trawling the cobwebs
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Marc
Marc
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1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
IIRC, the dash light goes out to signal to the driver that starting can be done successfully - but pre-heating will continue for a while afterwards (ie during starting). That would explain what seems like very short pre-heat times. Post-heating rumbles on after that.
Chris
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XM 2.0 SX Polar White
CX 20 Polar White
GS 1220 Geranium Red
CX 2.4 Prestige C-Matic Nevada Beige
GS 1000 Cedreat Yellow - x 5741
Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
My pre-heater light doesn't stay on at all and goes off straight away with the other lights.
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help
Marc
Marc
- white exec
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- Posts: 7445
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1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S - x 1752
Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
Some do. Probably signifies as more or less instant start is available - ie as long as it takes to turn the key. Our XM does just this, a lot of the time.
Chris
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Re: 307 2.0hdi misfire
GiveMeABreak wrote: ↑18 Sep 2018, 15:20 Couldn't say if they are solenoid or Piezo Elis - Bosch are typically 1350 (Gen 1) 1600 (Gen 2) & 2000+ (Gen 3) BAR respectively, with Denso Gen 1 at 1450 & Gen 2 at 1800+ and Delphi up to 2000. I know that in the early days, the French did stay with solenoid tech (whether fro penny pinching or not we don't know), but it's actually quite hard to find out the type of injector without trawling the cobwebs
Fair enough, I just remember getting a historic code for the fuel pressure being over 1800 bar once, so obviously my system was one of the 1600 bar variants. I was curious that with your engine being the RHF engine that it has a better (2000 BAR) injection system?
I see mine for a split second this time of year, but in the depths of winter I've seen it on for a few seconds, probably about 5s.GiveMeABreak wrote: ↑18 Sep 2018, 16:36 My pre-heater light doesn't stay on at all and goes off straight away with the other lights.