107 won't start

[daviemck2006]

Ok so I said that Shaun was on his own but he asked me if I could help. His 107 has never been started since it's engine swap. The ignition lights flash when turned on then come steady, but there's nothing from the starter. He hasn't tried bump starting it. His car is 2012 and the £20 road tax. The engine came out of a 2012 car, but thats the year they adjusted the emissions, and dont know what it is. They used the wiring loom that came with the replacement engine. As for asking me for advice, it's the dark for me area of electrics and I have no idea. The only suggestion I have is change the wiring loom and see what happens. Anyone got any ideas that I can pass on?

[RichardW]

Davie

If you can PM or post the VIN I'll see if I can find a wiring diagram.

First check will be to see if it is getting 12V on the small terminal on the starter when the key is turned to crank. If you've not a multi meter a bulb on a bit of wire will do. This will point the finger either at the starter or the wiring upstream. Get him also to check that he has re-attached the earth strap from the engine / gearbox to the body - he wouldn't be the first to forget!!

[wheeler]

Is the original ECU being used ?

[daviemck2006]

As far as I am aware the original ecu is being used, I have passed on to check the earth and see if the starter is getting power. I also said whack the starter with a hammer or some such object! I also said take the lexia over and run a diagnostic on it. If I know Shaun it will be another few weeks before he looks at it again. I am not touching it, I will offer advice when asked for it. If all that fails and they change the wiring loom and that still fails then I shall get the wiring diagram from you Richard thanks.

[daviemck2006]

Ok, here's the latest with this. I went to it today, changed the wiring loom, the ignition lights now coming on without flashing but it still ain't starting. The battery is not great but it had jump lights on from Gabby. There's voltage all the time at the big power supply on the starter, and nothing on the little one, but when the key is turned to start there is power going to it. The starter is off the old engine. I hear the fuel pump working, but don't hear any relays or anything clicking. It is now into the dark area of electrics for me and I have no idea.

[wheeler]

Either the starter is dead (probably unlikely if it was ok before, could be a coincidence ?)
Or there is no earth to the engine block.
Try putting a single jump lead between the battery negative & a good clean metal part of the engine block & see if it starts.

[RichardW]

^^ almost word for word that is what I was going to write!!

[sparksie]

Ditto for me.
Even if the earth lead has been refitted, it may not be making a good connection, so try the jump lead from B- to block anyway.
In times gone by, this would have lit up control cables as the current found other ways to ground, via choke, throttle, clutch cables,etc.
Nowadays, in the absence of the earth strap, the engine is truly isolated from the body, thanks to electronic controls, so nothing happens whn the key is turned.
Of course, the starter solenoid may have chosen this moment to cave, or a brush may have got stuck. Modern solenoids ground through the motor, to help with pre-engagement, so if the motor is open circuit the solenoid won't even click.
Bottom line, if there's power at the stud and the small terminal get's power when the key is turned, the problem is either in the solenoid/motor, or it's a ground missing!

[Zelandeth]

Nothing to add really...for all it's a modern car, the electrical system in the 107 is conventional. Must be one of the few cars of its age that isn't multiplexed.

Not sure if it goes via an ECU, but armed with a wiring diagram it shouldn't be too hard to trace the start signal from the ignition switch to the starter.

My money's on a plug that's either missed or not properly seated, unless the immobiliser has decided to get involved, but I've no idea whether that acts on the ignition or starter circuit on the 107.

The comments about control cables does *nearly* apply to the 107, as it has a conventional throttle cable...but not quite as the pulley it attaches to on the throttle body is plastic!

[daviemck2006]

Next instalment. Jump lead from negative onto engine block and the starter operated but still no start. I made up a lead from a scrapper outside their shed and put it direct from the negative terminal to one of the bolts on the starter and made sure all contacts were wire brushed. So now the starter goes. I found a disconnected vacuum pipe, so reattached that. No joy. Can smell the petrol after cranking it, but the pipes are sound. When the ignition is on, and when cranking the only lights are the engine check light and battery light. I have every fuse out of both fuseboxes, checked then and cleaned the terminals. Still no difference. Fired up the diagbox, the only error it is saying is steering angle, which I am not worried about and cleared still no change. The fuel gauge and mile counter are not coming on. I was knackered by this time so gave up. About the only thing I haven't checked are the plugs. He has used the plugs and coil packs that came with the engine. The coil packs from his engine are there. The only thing I can think of now is put new plugs in and use the original coil packs. I am stuck, it is now beyond my knowledge and capabilities. Two days over there for 4 hrs and my back, legs, hands are all worn out. That's me done with it now. I know I was not going to do a thing to it, so at least I managed to keep to that untill he asked!

[wheeler]

Might now also be worth running a jump lead from the battery negative to the chassis just to rule it out.
Are you getting a spark ? also take the spark plugs out to make sure its not flooded.
Go into live data with diagbox, can you see engine speed ?
Diagbox should also be able to show you if the ECU is unlocked (not immobilised).
Also as said above check all electrical connectors are connected properly and in the right place.

[sparksie]

Well, we've proved they were not super meticulous with wiring, so I'd be going over everything that was unplugged, but I'd probably start with the crank sensor!
Also, check its in the right place. Very easy to knock them when separating engine and 'box and if it can't see the crank moving it won't generate a fault code, but won't tell the ecu to spark the plugs either

[daviemck2006]

It must be a sensor somewhere either not plugged in or been disturbed. At least the old engine is still there with all its sensors on it. So maybe start with the most obvious and go from there. I'm not doing anything for a couple of days, I need to recover or I will be on crash mode myself with sensors shutting down! I still have to do the injector seals and leak off pipes on the xantia to see if that stops the fuel leak on it.

[Zelandeth]

The lack of life from the temperature light, oil pressure light, SRS light, P/S light ESP light (if applicable) ABS light, odometer and fuel gauge tells us that *something* isn't connected...there are a lot of bits of the Christmas tree that aren't lighting up that should be.

Given that virtually all the relays etc are buried behind the instrument panel, I'd guess if that's not getting power that it must be something pretty fundamental. I'm guessing here mind you. Either that or there's something amiss with the ECU(s?).

Checking spark is a bit of a faff as these engines have a direct ignition system with a coil pack per plug bolted to the cam cover. Keep hands well clear if checking as I can tell you from prior experience that these coil packs can pack a heck of a punch.

[daviemck2006]

I'm actually wondering if the ecu is fried. Shaun said the engine was pretty much at max revs when it expired, could the sudden expiry of a conrod breaking and the engine disintegrating suddenly cook the ecu? I suppose with having two cars the same I could nick the ecu from white to put in black to try. Don't really want to take the chance of doing something untoward to white though.