C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

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admiral51
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by admiral51 »

MikeT wrote: 02 Jan 2019, 14:36 By default the EGR throttle butterfly is wide open and the intake heater flap is fully closed. Both move relatively easily by hand and firmly return under positive spring pressure.


The intake heater flap is the one that was not free to move, it would move but only if firm pressure was used and it did not freely return to closed each and every time.
Fingers crossed the swap over with a known working unit will clear the DPF clogging risk fault and service light.

Replied also in PM but the £250 is the price of a new unit and as per my previous post you have the bit already :)
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by MikeT »

They swapped the doser over and declared it has fixed the turbo underboost fault. It does seem to drive much better but the DPF and Service warnings are still showing. Diagbox should tell us more tomorrow.
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by Nemo26 »

Maybe is outlet clogged, and thats the reason of low inlet pressure. Try to measure backpressure of dpf with gauge, or just unscrew temperature sensor and drive like that. If you get any better you have your isuue located.
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by moizeau »

Something doesn't add up here (or if I'm missing something silly please tell me)? The sticky doser was the bypass butterfly (normally closed)? So the normally open one, if it remains open (apart from regen) should give a good flow of air unless the IC is restricted? This does presume that they operate in a fully closed and fully open position. This may not be the case in order to keep temps etc., just thinking back to Marc's comment on the changes made for emissions between my system and yours. Not much help, I realise, but....

One other thing, what is the regen situation in Diag?
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by MikeT »

Pete, to be honest I'm still unsure how the doser works exactly. They obviously have a power-off default state - EGR throttle wide open and Air Heater firmly closed. Whether that changes at key on or engine start and how they operate under all the various conditions are the secrets held within the many ECU maps. I know EGR has a small window of use and that the heater is used for active regenerations but to what degrees or under any other conditions, I'm clueless.

Nemo, regarding regens. On my initial diagnostic when Colin first brought the car to me, regens were showing as regularly occuring and the soot level at the time was very low, not long after a successful regeneration. In my mind, it was all working as it should.

I got it on the diagbox again today to compare. Soot loading was showing a high 64% but it was also still regenerating regularly.
Then I read the fault codes.

Two faults stored under the injection ECU, one being Preheating Relay circuit and this is the other:

P0299 : Turbo pressure electrovalve control
Characterisation: Flow too low
Status: Permanent
Engine Speed: 1863 rpm
Turbo pressure: 1376 mbar
Turbo pressure reference value: 2176 mbar
Turbo electrovalve open cycle ratio: 060 %
Output injected: 036 mg/stroke


I cleared the fault code and went for a short drive before reading them again and P0299 was once again showing which I cleared yet again before setting up recording of the DPF parameters for next diagnosis;

Driving in 4th @70mph for a fair stretch showed a regeneration starting as the intake and exhaust temperatures rose indicating the doser was in play and behaving as expected, eventually leaving the soot loading at a nice and low 1%
Once again, this result just adds to my confidence that contrary to the big bold alarmist Dash Warning "Service" and "Particle Filter at risk of Blocking", the DPF is being regenerated perfectly each and every time.

I checked the fault codes once more and was pleasantly surprised to see the turbo fault was not showing this time but not so pleased to see instead a different one had popped up

P0100: Flowmeter signal
Characterisation: Air flow not plausible
Status: Permanent fault
Engine Speed: 2988 rpm
air flow per cylinder: 1165 mg/stroke
EGR valve position: 034 %
output injected: 030 mg/stroke
air flow setting: 827 mg/stroke


This is where my plan fell apart and I began to grasp at straws on what to do next. I only had one day insurance which I took out yesterday and the clock was ticking. The air intake parameters weren't making much sense as it was showing certain actuators with "Invalid" as a value so I didn't want to waste time trying to get my head round all that.

Instead I went for the juglar, knowing the system will claim the DPF is at end-of-life based purely on the amount of additive used in it's lifetime. I reset the additive counter (actually just delcared it's got a new DPF) and on the drive home both Service and Risk of Particle Filter warnings were nowhere to be seen.

The netbook battery was getting low by this time so I haven't re-read any codes since, other than the dash warnings, which shows No Faults. Time for a cuppa!
Last edited by MikeT on 04 Jan 2019, 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
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moizeau
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by moizeau »

Fingers crossed, but looking in the right direction.
Was power normal when you drove it?
Mine regens around the 70% mark and reduces to 1 or 2.
Sounds like the sticking doser was one problem and unrelated to the other.
A well deserved cuppa, possibly with something in it.
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by MikeT »

I've only driven it on three occassions now Pete so I have no idea what "normal" is on this car. Colin would be the best judge of that I think. It does drive better than before the doser swap, the intermittent hesitations seem to have been cured and I can drive it up to the redline at will but it's a markedly different driving experience to my C5 1.6hdi, that's for sure.

I've just tried (read failed and permanently broke brittle plastic clips) dismantling the faulty doser and discovered with the motor housing bolts slightly backed off, the flap seems to operate perfectly, moving smoothly against spring pressure and firmly closing when released. It's only when the housing bolts are fully tightened down (pushing the motor and connected spindle slightly further into the body, does the snagging start. In retrospect, I think a couple of hard smacks on the spindle end to drive it further into the motor might have fixed it but it's too late now, it's junk. Definitely need to buy a replacement to put back on my estate. Maybe another MAF too.
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by admiral51 »

First off going to repost the fault codes that were present on Dec 1st before i cleaned the Air Doser ( long time ago i know )
P0299 : Turbo pressure electrovalve control
Characterisation : Flow too low
Status : Permanent fault
Location : local
Variables associated with the fault
Engine speed : 2570 rpm
Turbo pressure. : 1729 mBar
turbo pressure reference value : 2200 mBar
turbo electrovalve open cycle ratio : 049 %
output injected : 044 mg/stroke


P1470 : Air heater throttle position copy signal
Characterisation : butterfly jammed
Status : Permanent fault
Location : local
Variables associated with the fault
Engine speed : 0000 rpm
engine coolant temperature : 071 °C
heater throttle open cycle ratio : 0010 %
heater butterfly repeat voltage : 4098 mV
post operation engine status : start of power latch timer


P2123 : Inlet air heating motorised throttle unit
Characterisation : Short circuit to positive
Status : intermittent .
Location : local
Variables associated with the fault
Engine speed : 0000 rpm
Heater throttle setting : 0010 %
heater throttle open cycle ratio : 082 %
battery voltage : 13.45 V
Status of engine : Post-operation power latch


P1351 : Preheating relay circuit
Characterisation : Relay supplied and Plugs never supplied
Status : Permanent fault
Location : local
Variables associated with the fault
Engine speed : 0771 rpm
engine coolant temperature : 009 °C
battery voltage : 14.36 V
pre-heat relay control : unspecified value
preheating relay status : Active


P2120 : Air heater throttle position copy signal
Characterisation : opening too great
Status : intermittent .
Location : local
Variables associated with the fault
Engine speed : 2313 rpm
Heater throttle setting : 000 %
heater throttle open cycle ratio : 0010 %
output injected : 000 mg/stroke
engine coolant temperature : 074 °C


P0100 : Flowmeter signal
Characterisation : Air flow not plausible
Status : intermittent .
Location : local
Variables associated with the fault
Engine speed : 2891 rpm
air flow per cylinder : 1182 mg/stroke
EGR valve position : 027 %
output injected : 042 mg/stroke
air flow setting : 827 mg/stroke


P2032 : Catalytic converter downstream temperature signal
Characterisation : Short circuit to earth or value too low
Status : intermittent .
Location : local
Variables associated with the fault
Engine speed : 3116 rpm
catalytic converter temperature : 025 °C
Status of the regeneration : Regeneration process active
output injected : 031 mg/stroke
Status of engine : Engine operating

As you can see P0100 was present :(

As for the current state of the car now all i can say is Mike you have done better than i could, i also could not understand DPF and Service light even though we had data to show it was not at risk and had in fact been regenning as it should.
As for the "normal" driving bit,that is harder to explain but i will try again and Mike will be the better judge as to if it sounds/feels/pulls better now.
When it was running well it did rev freely and pull well and had plenty of low down grunt, but was never one to get of the starting grid like a greyhound, however 3rd it did seem to be its have fun gear, 4th and 5th were just for dual and motorway work and then it did come into its own, 5th gear at 70 mph around 2k revs and plant your foot and it would pull like a train.
When it was playing up, and by that i do not mean the kangeroo stuff you could plant your foot in 3/4/5 and no get up and go,felt flat, but if you lifted off for a split second and then planted your foot it behaved like it should.

Mike on a side note i did look at resetting the additive counter but having a Lexia for only a few weeks i never managed to work out how, and i think you may and me were on the right lines that the software in the BSI/ECUs maybe set to throw up a so called end of life on the DPF.
Fingers crossed you have now got it sorted, but if you use the cruise or speed limiter and it goes offline you have got the P0299 code logged, and just for peace of mind i think you need to change that vacuum valve thingy if you can.

I maybe the ex owner and maybe giving myself an inwards kicking but i really am glad that you have got closer to solving the problems with it than i did and i do want to see it again on the road. =D>

Oh remember it is a blinking heavy car for a 1.6 lump and replied in PM to your other question

Colin
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by MikeT »

Yes, the cruise control was offline a few times and I fully expect P0299 to be present next time I look. Time to get those other parts fitted next.
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by MikeT »

Nothing getting done for the foreseeable while I'm in recovery mode.

The plan is to get the pre-supplied turbo solenoid and diaphragm fitted and hope for the best. The DPF issue is/was irrelevant and the intermittent faults can be ignored along with the non-sensical and/or missing live data. Aside from leaking vacuum and the turbo itself, I can't think what else could be remaining at fault.

Meanwhile, I found and ordered a used air doser off ebay for the princely sum of £12 posted. All I need now is to find a decent mobile mechanic I can call on to do the work for me, garage prices are scarily insane imo.
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by moizeau »

Bargain....I hope, can you not get a friend, or friends nipper (who possibly knows nothing) to fit it with your guidance? Shame I'm on the wrong side of the channel!
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by MikeT »

Spoke with a PSA trained mechanic at my local MOT shop (wish I knew this before) and he says I should suspect the turbo variable vanes as being a good condidate for underboosting though gave him food for thought when I mentioned the fact the turbo has been seen to be boosting over 2bar at times.

Asking if they'd fit the solenoid and diaphragm, he initially declined the latter stating the diaphragm is calibrated to the turbo on the bench before fitting and that they usually send them away for such jobs. Fitting without calibrating he tells me risks a potential overboost which can also cause the turbo to fail but I told him I'd not hold them to account if he would be so kind as to fit it for me anyway. My thinking is I don't see why it can't be calibrated in-situ if the previously posted calibration video is anything to go by?

He doesn't think the solenoid valve represents any problem and promised to check the turbo at the same time but they're pretty busy at the moment and don't envisage getting to look at it until the end of the week.

Meanwhile, my replacement air doser arrived today but it needs a damn good degreasing before anything else.
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by MikeT »

The mechanic's got back to me after fitting the turbo acuator diaphragm as he's discovered where the oil leak was coming from - the turbo oil feed pipe. There's some awful freeplay movement between the pipe and where it enters the banjo union sleeve (top end of the turbo).
I'm quoted £69 (from ECP) for the part alone so I'm trying to source it for less at the moment but I don't have the VIN to be sure of the correct part needed? I think it's 0379 68 which I've just looked up on service citroen (not using VIN) priced £58.34 inclusive.

However, I've also found the same part number listed on ebay for much less but when I select the correct car from the "garage" list, it says it will not fit.
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Is this Admiral's Ex C5 Mike? IF so I have that VIN still.

If it is then 037968 is the correct one.
Mike Turbo Pipe.PNG

These claim it's an original PSA one:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-Citr ... SwUq9bNKy9

... and they quote the correct part number £32.80
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Re: C5 2008 (X7 ?) Turbo Fault

Post by MikeT »

Yeah that's the one Marc, the car this thread is about where the VIN is obscured from me reading it :D
Stupid ebay car selector thinks it's the wrong part.
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