Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
Raul
Posts: 146
Joined: 05 May 2012, 05:37
Location: Estonia
My Cars:
x 2

Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by Raul »

Hi

I would like to hear your opinion about this. So here is what happened: after warming up the engine ( treated with xado ) I removed the oil plug and drained the oil. I waited approximately 15 min to drain as much oil as possible and then I put the oil plug back and started the engine. The oil and stop light were constantly on. I drove 2x30 km maintaining about 60 mph. Everything was fine. I came back to garage and removed the oil plug again and I drained the residual oil about 0,5 litres and went to another test drive. This time it was short as just after about 200 m the turbo made a peculiar noise but I did not gave up and I managed to continue to drive about 3 km after that maintaining about 45 mph, then the engine started to lose power and eventually stalled. I tried to start it and it was obvious that the cranking was heavy but eventually it started but the power was down and when I tried to move the car it stalled. So I phoned my neighbour( I used his garage to drain the oil) and he brought the oil that I drained and I put it back to the engine. It took some cranking but eventually the engine loosened up and started and I drove home. The turbo and engine are fine at the moment.
So what do you think - could an engine without xado treatment withstand that kind of punishment?
The car was xantia 1,9td.
Citroen gsa 1299 , 1982
Citroen gs 1,2 pallas 1977
Citroen xantia 1,9 td estate 1996
Citroen Xantia 2.0 hdi 90 2000
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 25367
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 13:30
Location: Washington
My Cars: Mazda 6
Ooops.
Previously:
2009 Honda Civic :(
C5, C5, Xantia, BX, GS, Visa.
R4, R11TXE, R14, R30TX
x 4889

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by myglaren »

Not familiar with Xado but years ago there was a claim from Molyslip that they had taken a run-in lorry, changed the oil and added Molyslip, driven it for a fair distance to coat the engine internals with Molyslip, drained the oil and driven it without oil until it seized - I don't remember the distance but a few miles,
Allowed it to cool, refilled with oil + Molyslip and it was fine for thousands of miles after.
Allegedly.
Raul
Posts: 146
Joined: 05 May 2012, 05:37
Location: Estonia
My Cars:
x 2

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by Raul »

myglaren wrote: 17 Aug 2018, 21:24 Not familiar with Xado but years ago there was a claim from Molyslip that they had taken a run-in lorry, changed the oil and added Molyslip, driven it for a fair distance to coat the engine internals with Molyslip, drained the oil and driven it without oil until it seized - I don't remember the distance but a few miles,
Allowed it to cool, refilled with oil + Molyslip and it was fine for thousands of miles after.
Allegedly.


But what about non treated engine? Could an engine survive draining the oil and driving 60 km? Is it possible that we may underestimate the residual oil that stays in the engine and the engine could survive with or without xado thanks to this residual oil.
The reason I use this product is that it allegedly protects the engine and turbo and even allows to drive without the oil few hundred km. As it turned out the engine seized quickly when I tried to drive after I drained the oil second time. I am a little bit dissapointed about that product.
Citroen gsa 1299 , 1982
Citroen gs 1,2 pallas 1977
Citroen xantia 1,9 td estate 1996
Citroen Xantia 2.0 hdi 90 2000
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 25367
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 13:30
Location: Washington
My Cars: Mazda 6
Ooops.
Previously:
2009 Honda Civic :(
C5, C5, Xantia, BX, GS, Visa.
R4, R11TXE, R14, R30TX
x 4889

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by myglaren »

I expect that the main problem would be the lack of any cooling of the engine without oil present.
Molyslip claim that the Molybdenum residual coating of the moving parts protect the engine from physical damage when the engine seizes due to thermal expansion of the components so allowing them to free again when cooled and re-lubricated.

During the scrappage scheme here a few years ago there were some experiments done by scrapyards to destroy engines by running without oil and coolant,
Some I saw lasted a surprising amount of time before seizing - mainly Volvos if I remember correctly.
Online
Gibbo2286
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 7171
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
Location: GL15***
My Cars: 2006 C5 2.0 Litre HDI VTR Automatic Estate.(now sold on)
Currently Renault Zoe 2014 ZE
x 2500

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by Gibbo2286 »

My question is "What's the point?" There's clearly nothing to gain from doing it...…………….unless you're a Xado seller.
Man is, by nature, a lazy beast, he does not need twice encouraging to do nothing.
User avatar
EDC5
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1216
Joined: 01 Jul 2017, 21:48
Location: N. Wales
My Cars: Citroen C5 RHR AM6
x 120

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by EDC5 »

I'm not sure what useful information can be gleaned from such tests though. A normal engine is never going to be run dry.

Also, these additives may be better than no oil, friction-wise, but I'm willing to bet that they don't lubricate as well as normal oil under normal circumstances.
Therefore adding it to your oil may actually do more harm than good
Raul
Posts: 146
Joined: 05 May 2012, 05:37
Location: Estonia
My Cars:
x 2

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by Raul »

EDC5 wrote: 18 Aug 2018, 09:55 I'm not sure what useful information can be gleaned from such tests though. A normal engine is never going to be run dry.

Also, these additives may be better than no oil, friction-wise, but I'm willing to bet that they don't lubricate as well as normal oil under normal circumstances.
Therefore adding it to your oil may actually do more harm than good
Gibbo2286 wrote: 18 Aug 2018, 09:43 My question is "What's the point?" There's clearly nothing to gain from doing it...…………….unless you're a Xado seller.
The point is to protect the engine as much as possible and to prevent damages from cold starts etc. I once read from the land rover forum that the 3.0 v6 tdi engines ( psa group engine, same is on the citroen C5 etc ) are prone to crankshaft failures and they recommended to treat the engine with a product of similar type. The main problem with those engines was that when you do not drive every day the oil film dissapears eventually and cold starts are starting to damage the engine excessively. Also the fact that the crank itself is not beefy enough for this kind of car. The reason I searched for this kind of information was that there was a time a couple of years ago I wanted to buy a 3.0 tdi citroen c5 and the seller mentioned about the replacement engine that cost him a fortune. So I asked him what happened and he told me that the crank just snapped out of the blue when he was cruising along the highway. He also mentioned that mechanics from company who made the replacement said that they had never seen so weak crank in such powerful diesel engine.
I have also heard many problems with 1,6 hdi-s that have turbo problems due to the insufficient lubrications from the oil.
Last edited by Raul on 18 Aug 2018, 19:21, edited 1 time in total.
Citroen gsa 1299 , 1982
Citroen gs 1,2 pallas 1977
Citroen xantia 1,9 td estate 1996
Citroen Xantia 2.0 hdi 90 2000
Online
User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 37011
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
Location: West Wales
My Cars: C3 Aircross SUV HDi Flair Peperoncino Red (The Chili Hornet)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi Exclusive Mativoire Beige (The Golden Hornet)
C3 1.6 HDi Exclusive Aluminium Grey (The Silver Hornet)
C5 MK II 2.0 HDi Exclusive Obsidian Black
C5 MK I 2.0 HDi SX Wicked Red
Xantia S2 2.0 HDi SX Hermes Red
C15 Romahome White
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Emerald Green Pearlescent
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Polar White
XM 2.0 SX Polar White
CX 20 Polar White
GS 1220 Geranium Red
CX 2.4 Prestige C-Matic Nevada Beige
GS 1000 Cedreat Yellow
x 5647

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Raul wrote: 18 Aug 2018, 19:06
I have also heard many problems with 1,6 hdi-s that have turbo problems due to the insufficient lubrications from the oil.

That's a completely different topic on the 1.6. This was a particular problem with the PSA / Ford (🙄)1.6 DV6 engine - requiring very specific oil change procedures to ensure ALL the old oil is removed from the engine. Failure to do so can cause quick contamination of the new oil and problems. The added problem is the turbo oil feed pipe. This has a very small gauze filter that RAPIDLY blocks and starves the turbo of oil. leading to rapid turbo failure. Recommendations are for these engines VERY frequent oil changes, having the modified dipstick and ensuring frequent (earlier than recommended) oil changes and correct spec oil.
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help

Marc
User avatar
EDC5
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1216
Joined: 01 Jul 2017, 21:48
Location: N. Wales
My Cars: Citroen C5 RHR AM6
x 120

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by EDC5 »

Raul wrote: 18 Aug 2018, 19:06
EDC5 wrote: 18 Aug 2018, 09:55 I'm not sure what useful information can be gleaned from such tests though. A normal engine is never going to be run dry.

Also, these additives may be better than no oil, friction-wise, but I'm willing to bet that they don't lubricate as well as normal oil under normal circumstances.
Therefore adding it to your oil may actually do more harm than good
Gibbo2286 wrote: 18 Aug 2018, 09:43 My question is "What's the point?" There's clearly nothing to gain from doing it...…………….unless you're a Xado seller.
The point is to protect the engine as much as possible and to prevent damages from cold starts etc. I once read from the land rover forum that the 3.0 v6 tdi engines ( psa group engine, same is on the citroen C5 etc ) are prone to crankshaft failures and they recommended to treat the engine with a product of similar type. The main problem with those engines was that when you do not drive every day the oil film dissapears eventually and cold starts are starting to damage the engine excessively. Also the fact that the crank itself is not beefy enough for this kind of car. The reason I searched for this kind of information was that there was a time a couple of years ago I wanted to buy a 3.0 tdi citroen c5 and the seller mentioned about the replacement engine that cost him a fortune. So I asked him what happened and he told me that the crank just snapped out of the blue when he was cruising along the highway. He also mentioned that mechanics from company who made the replacement said that they had never seen so weak crank in such powerful diesel engine.
I have also heard many problems with 1,6 hdi-s that have turbo problems due to the insufficient lubrications from the oil.


That's a very interesting point regarding the cold start situation. I remember the marketing for Castrol Magnatec claimed it stuck to metal surfaces for exactly that purpose, therefore, I expect any big name oil to posses such characteristics already.

I'm not seeing how a product like this could protect a crankshaft if it's simply too weak for the forces acting on it. Surely the breakage occurs as a result of excessive force busting the metal rather than excessive wear?

I can't see the harm in adding some of this product to the engine oil, however I think (and would hope) that any reputable oil will already contain the necessary additives to achieve the same result.
Online
User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 37011
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
Location: West Wales
My Cars: C3 Aircross SUV HDi Flair Peperoncino Red (The Chili Hornet)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi Exclusive Mativoire Beige (The Golden Hornet)
C3 1.6 HDi Exclusive Aluminium Grey (The Silver Hornet)
C5 MK II 2.0 HDi Exclusive Obsidian Black
C5 MK I 2.0 HDi SX Wicked Red
Xantia S2 2.0 HDi SX Hermes Red
C15 Romahome White
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Emerald Green Pearlescent
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Polar White
XM 2.0 SX Polar White
CX 20 Polar White
GS 1220 Geranium Red
CX 2.4 Prestige C-Matic Nevada Beige
GS 1000 Cedreat Yellow
x 5647

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I'm not sure of their claims to be honest - looking at their FAQs:
https://xado.co.uk/faqs#question61
61. Does XADO contain any PTFE, Boron, Moly, Zinc, Chlorinated Hydrocarbon etc?

No, XADO does not contain any of these products. These products can damage your engine and in certain circumstances are toxic and carcinogenic. XADO is very safe to use.
I'm not exactly sure which product you are referring to in your original Post as there are many by this manufacturer, but certainly their XADO 1 Stage Engine and Magnum products would seem quite toxic according to the data sheet.

http://xado.info/safety_certificates/XA ... num_en.pdf

I really can't see how some of their products can miraculously 'repair' metal and scratches inside an engine! Although they say this stuff doesn't contain PTFE, we all remember the Slick 50 ads only to find out that it can block up the oil channels and other parts of the engine causing oil starvation...
However, such solids seem even more inclined to coat non-moving parts, like oil passages and filters. After all, if it can build up under the pressures and friction exerted on a cylinder wall, then it stands to reason it should build up even better in places with low pressures and virtually no friction.

This conclusion seems to be borne out by tests on oil additives containing PTFE conducted by the NASA Lewis Research Center, which said in their report, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of lubricant" (Rau).
Not convinced and I certainly wouldn't shove any of this in a modern engine without some independent proof of the benefits of using it; but more importantly I would want some assurance that it it doesn't cause more problems....
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help

Marc
Raul
Posts: 146
Joined: 05 May 2012, 05:37
Location: Estonia
My Cars:
x 2

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by Raul »

I found one of those landy forum threads:
Hi All

we have a fix for this here in South Africa. It is called Poly-TFE, a product developed in RSA for the defence and mining industries.

The leading indies are treating their cuzzies TDV6 D3's which then prevents the dreaded bearing failure.

The problem seems to be more prevalent on vehicles which are sparsely driven. But as I mentioned higher up, you can prevent it with that treatment.

BABEN who is very active on the Disco3.co.uk forum can vouch for this. Wink
hgbosch wrote:
Hi All

we have a fix for this here in South Africa. It is called Poly-TFE, a product developed in RSA for the defence and mining industries.

The leading indies are treating their cuzzies TDV6 D3's which then prevents the dreaded bearing failure.


I'm not convinced that any snake-oil can relocate shells that were incorrectly installed at manufacture. Indeed I question the original design as they rely more on good fortune than mechanical action to remain in the correct place.
Hi Robbie

the leading indies in SA use it to prevent the turning of the bearings. You are quite correct in stating that a dislodged bearing cannot miraculously be returned to its original position.

All that Poly-TFE does is to prevent cold start wear and tear, because that is when those shells are shifted.

And that is why this "wonder muti" works. As simple as that. There is no Voodoo involved. Very Happy

The turning of the bearing shells can only happen, once the bearings have worn beyond a certain crititcal point.
Citroen gsa 1299 , 1982
Citroen gs 1,2 pallas 1977
Citroen xantia 1,9 td estate 1996
Citroen Xantia 2.0 hdi 90 2000
Raul
Posts: 146
Joined: 05 May 2012, 05:37
Location: Estonia
My Cars:
x 2

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by Raul »

Also take a look at this experiment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ZN-Zes88c
Citroen gsa 1299 , 1982
Citroen gs 1,2 pallas 1977
Citroen xantia 1,9 td estate 1996
Citroen Xantia 2.0 hdi 90 2000
Online
User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 37011
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
Location: West Wales
My Cars: C3 Aircross SUV HDi Flair Peperoncino Red (The Chili Hornet)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi Exclusive Mativoire Beige (The Golden Hornet)
C3 1.6 HDi Exclusive Aluminium Grey (The Silver Hornet)
C5 MK II 2.0 HDi Exclusive Obsidian Black
C5 MK I 2.0 HDi SX Wicked Red
Xantia S2 2.0 HDi SX Hermes Red
C15 Romahome White
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Emerald Green Pearlescent
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Polar White
XM 2.0 SX Polar White
CX 20 Polar White
GS 1220 Geranium Red
CX 2.4 Prestige C-Matic Nevada Beige
GS 1000 Cedreat Yellow
x 5647

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Yes, 'Poly FTE' so if it's PTFE or Polytetrafluoroethylene to give the full name, then it's the same as what was in Slick 50! Won't be going in my engine any time soon :-D
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help

Marc
Raul
Posts: 146
Joined: 05 May 2012, 05:37
Location: Estonia
My Cars:
x 2

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by Raul »

GiveMeABreak wrote: 18 Aug 2018, 20:32 Yes, 'Poly FTE' so if it's PTFE or Polytetrafluoroethylene to give the full name, then it's the same as what was in Slick 50! Won't be going in my engine any time soon :-D


I do not know what is wrong with this product. I just wanted to point out where I found out about this similar product to Xado that has been successfully used.

Also please take a look at that bearing experiment I posted before. It shows how this stuff restores some microdamages.
Citroen gsa 1299 , 1982
Citroen gs 1,2 pallas 1977
Citroen xantia 1,9 td estate 1996
Citroen Xantia 2.0 hdi 90 2000
User avatar
Michel
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 2207
Joined: 29 May 2017, 13:50
Location: Nothanks
My Cars: Some cars and a motorbike
x 659

Re: Xado experiment ( driving without oil )

Post by Michel »

It's complete snake oil, and simply an attempt at separating you from your money.
Post Reply