Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

User avatar
Old-Guy
Posts: 1798
Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 12:08
Location: Gloucestershire
My Cars: 2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
x 17

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso

Post by Old-Guy »

RichardW wrote: 25 Jun 2017, 13:05 I'll e-mail you the procedure from Citroen... I guess it all depends on whether it will pull out of the head or not!


That's very kind of you Richard.

Not knowing any better in the early days of my C4 Picasso research, I found and saved a guide for the 16v (DV6TED4) - scary reading this morning special tools including specific adaptors to get a really solid hold on the injector and the use of a hydraulic extractor/inserter, and/or 8Kg(!) slide hammers and the risk of pulling the injector sleeve out of the head and having to recut the seat before inserting a new one. I've heard lots of horror stories about removing injectors from the pre-2010 Ford clones.
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 982

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso

Post by RichardW »

RichardW wrote: 22 Jun 2017, 21:45 Hmm... must be a year and a bit since my Dad had his done, and my Sister has the car now... it doesn't do many miles and must be about 18 months since it was done. Be expecting the call for it having broken down soon then.... :roll:


It was limping and last week and garage reported injection fault :roll: I was away and Sis due to go away so I don't know what's happened to it, but that sounds like No 2 turning its toes up. Will 3 and 4 follow?
Richard W
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 982

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso

Post by RichardW »

Guy

Don't know if you have sorted this yet - I found the contact e-mail for Rigbye's: parts@jarigbyechorley.citroen.co.uk
Richard W
User avatar
Old-Guy
Posts: 1798
Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 12:08
Location: Gloucestershire
My Cars: 2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
x 17

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso

Post by Old-Guy »

Richard, my belated thanks.

In the end, I didn't have a real option to getting a local indy to do the job and for what I considered a reasonable price too.

However, a word of warning - it appears that there's a good reason why Siemens specify that the injector clamp, bolt, pivot pad and fuel line should all be replaced when an injector is replaced. About 500 miles later, we had a further incident, fortunately just after starting the car. It missed a beat then went onto 3 cylinders and then diesel vapour started billowing from under the cylinder head cover. Sodde's Law, Saturday afternoon. First thing Monday, the car went back to the garage - injector clamp fractured right across. The crack had been there a long time and it had finally zipped right across.

Seems as though this may not be an isolated case and perhaps the two failures are inter-related. Batch of faulty castings or poor design? When they do crack, does the increasingly uneven pressure on the injector cause it to malfunction? Does releasing and then re-tensioning the clamp bolt cause the crack to accelerate? Do clamps usually fail under high power, thus stressing the fuel line, bending the bolt and damaging the pivot pad?

The garage were very prompt, we had the car back before Tuesday lunch-time - it would have been Monday 5 o'clock if the parts had turned up earlier.

Interestingly, the ECU didn't put the engine into limp mode, perhaps because I was able to trickle the half-mile to the garage using no more than about 1,500 rpm, treating the throttle like glass and in as high a gear as possible. At 7:45 there was very little traffic and as the first few hundred yards are downhill I was able to build some speed for the gentle climb through the town - fortunately no pedestrians pressing buttons to bring me to a halt; a bit like driving with no clutch!
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
User avatar
Old-Guy
Posts: 1798
Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 12:08
Location: Gloucestershire
My Cars: 2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
x 17

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure UPDATE

Post by Old-Guy »

Sunday morning before last, a second (#4) injector dropped dead - while storming up the outside lane of Haldon Hill (A38 off the bottom of the M5) :shock: :oops:
Being Sunday, it was nearly 2 hours before Enfield Auto Recovery (for Britannia Rescue) arrived to recover us to our daughter's near Kingsbridge - our choice, they'd have brought us home to Gloucestershire if we'd wanted.

Our 50% failure rate in < 7 months, plus the fact that multiple injector failure is common, persuaded us to have all the remaining 3 originals (1 dead + 2 still working) changed.

This is the (October) 2010-on 1.6HDi - 8V SOHC type DV6C engine, NOT the 1.6HDi 16V DOHC type DV6TED4 up to around June 2010.

Interestingly, both the rescue mechanic driving the recovery truck and Steve, the mobile mechanic who fitted the 3 new injectors and set them up, reckon that the use of cheap DERV is a major factor in modern injection system failures; confirms my practice of always running the Xantia on Shell and the Picasso on V-Power. Certainly the 3 injectors removed were not just well-coked but also had very 'gummy' tips. Steve has changed injectors on a number of these engines (mostly on Fords) but this is the first time he had any problem extracting injectors - rust on the injector bodies below the (yellow) silicone water seals. Perhaps some numpty pressure-washed the engine at some time.

If you live in the South Hams or break down on holiday, we thoroughly recommend Steve Dyos. 20-years+ with the AA, He's looked after daughter's Corolla Verso for the last few years, does a good job for a very reasonable price and fixed the Picasso at short notice (limiting factor was the time for the parts to be delivered).

From experience, I strongly recommend also changing the injector clamp, pivot pad, and (of course) the stretch bolt. Steve said the motor factors sell a lot of 4-cylinder kit of all 3 items - £49 +VAT - so it sounds as though my experience of clamp failure is common. I have the 3 old clamps and will do an old-fashioned crack-test on them (clean, soak in paraffin, wipe dry, dust with talc).

Target price for injectors (on exchange) is £200 +VAT.
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 982

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

Post by RichardW »

Ouch, Guy... that's an expensive day out!!

My Sister's had a wobble a few months back, but new fuel filter sorted it; still waiting on it to drop another injector....

Hopefully the new BlueHdi engines are not similarly afflicted!
Richard W
User avatar
Old-Guy
Posts: 1798
Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 12:08
Location: Gloucestershire
My Cars: 2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
x 17

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

Post by Old-Guy »

An eye-watering £930! Bit the bullet rather than waiting for the next failure with another 3/4-day with no car - over the next few months we must have a reliable car to get to hospital for twice-weekly treatment sessions.

I suggest anyone with an (early-ish) DV6C engine still on the original injectors should, if it's affordable and the vehicle is worth spending £1,000 on, consider changing all the injectors when the first one fails.
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
api182
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 Aug 2019, 21:04
Location: Aberystwyth
My Cars: 2011 Citroen C4 Picasso 1.6HDi VTR+
2006 Peugeot 407 2.0HDi

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

Post by api182 »

RichardW wrote: 20 Feb 2018, 13:58 Ouch, Guy... that's an expensive day out!!

My Sister's had a wobble a few months back, but new fuel filter sorted it; still waiting on it to drop another injector....

Hopefully the new BlueHdi engines are not similarly afflicted!


Hi Richard, I know this is resurrecting an old thread but I'm just wondering if there were any further developments with your sisters C4 Picasso?

Long story short with ours is, approx 10k miles ago, ESP/ASR message on the dash and limp mode (won't rev over 2k rpm)

Got away with turning it off and back on again and all was well, it was approx 55k miles on the clock then, thought at the time, this needs a service so booked it in with my mechanic, told him what had happened and he made a phone call to a Citroen technician. He advised the fuel filter replacement as that's always a good starting point with these engines?

Did that, had the car back and all was ok for around another 10k miles. (For the most part, I have felt the very odd hesitation or splutter throughout that mileage but very rare I just dismissed it)

So, a few days ago, same again, on my way back from work. A/C on (if that makes any difference) doing a 30minute drive of varying speed between 40~60mph.

Pulled over, engine off, back on still there...

This went on a few more times before this time, I got it recovered home...

I remembered what was said last time, so got a Bosch fuel filter from eurocarparts and replaced it. Started her up and revving fine, all good except the warning message still on...

Got my OBD2 Bluetooth connector and Torque app out and reset the fault codes, engine off back on all is good this time, no messages...

Took it for a 4mile drive, bit of spluttering here and there, I put that down to air in the filter maybe?

Until, it happened again... Ugh... Pulled over, reset the faults with Torque again, engine off back on and fine again.

Now it's been fine for around another 6 or 7 miles now, but I don't trust it.

I'm sure I felt it hesitate again today, I've stripped some of the engine down and used a mirror to see the injectors, they look clean and dry, it's only done 66k miles and we don't use supermarket fuel so I really don't know what's going on...

Any ideas at all (anyone?)

Thanks!
Adam.
User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 36990
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
Location: West Wales
My Cars: C3 Aircross SUV HDi Flair Peperoncino Red (The Chili Hornet)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi Exclusive Mativoire Beige (The Golden Hornet)
C3 1.6 HDi Exclusive Aluminium Grey (The Silver Hornet)
C5 MK II 2.0 HDi Exclusive Obsidian Black
C5 MK I 2.0 HDi SX Wicked Red
Xantia S2 2.0 HDi SX Hermes Red
C15 Romahome White
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Emerald Green Pearlescent
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Polar White
XM 2.0 SX Polar White
CX 20 Polar White
GS 1220 Geranium Red
CX 2.4 Prestige C-Matic Nevada Beige
GS 1000 Cedreat Yellow
x 5644

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Adam, what are the actual fault codes you are getting? It’s no good clearing the codes and hoping the problem will go away.

There is obviously a problem and the engine ECU is using a back up mode until the fault is rectified.

Post your VIN up and the fault codes and then we may be able to assist further.
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help

Marc
api182
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 Aug 2019, 21:04
Location: Aberystwyth
My Cars: 2011 Citroen C4 Picasso 1.6HDi VTR+
2006 Peugeot 407 2.0HDi

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

Post by api182 »

GiveMeABreak wrote: 03 Aug 2019, 22:32 Adam, what are the actual fault codes you are getting? It’s no good clearing the codes and hoping the problem will go away.

There is obviously a problem and the engine ECU is using a back up mode until the fault is rectified.

Post your VIN up and the fault codes and then we may be able to assist further.


Hi, thanks for the reply.

I'll get the VIN in the morning but for now, see the attached screenshot of the faults Torque reported. I do have Lexia too but didn't use it on this occasion so don't have the proper Citroen fault codes if they're different..?
Attachments
Screenshot_2019-07-31-20-11-14-251_org.prowl.torque.jpg
api182
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 Aug 2019, 21:04
Location: Aberystwyth
My Cars: 2011 Citroen C4 Picasso 1.6HDi VTR+
2006 Peugeot 407 2.0HDi

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

Post by api182 »

GiveMeABreak wrote: 03 Aug 2019, 22:32 Adam, what are the actual fault codes you are getting? It’s no good clearing the codes and hoping the problem will go away.

There is obviously a problem and the engine ECU is using a back up mode until the fault is rectified.

Post your VIN up and the fault codes and then we may be able to assist further.


So that's :
P0263 - Cylinder 1 Contribution/Balance
P0271 - Cylinder 4 Injector Circuit High

And the VIN is :
VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

Thanks!
User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 36990
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
Location: West Wales
My Cars: C3 Aircross SUV HDi Flair Peperoncino Red (The Chili Hornet)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi Exclusive Mativoire Beige (The Golden Hornet)
C3 1.6 HDi Exclusive Aluminium Grey (The Silver Hornet)
C5 MK II 2.0 HDi Exclusive Obsidian Black
C5 MK I 2.0 HDi SX Wicked Red
Xantia S2 2.0 HDi SX Hermes Red
C15 Romahome White
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Emerald Green Pearlescent
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Polar White
XM 2.0 SX Polar White
CX 20 Polar White
GS 1220 Geranium Red
CX 2.4 Prestige C-Matic Nevada Beige
GS 1000 Cedreat Yellow
x 5644

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ok, so the first thing I noticed when checking is that there is a recall notification for your specific vehicle:
An after-sales campaign must be carried out on this vehicle. Advise your client to make an appointment with their authorised dealer as soon as possible
When I ran the fault codes which I'll summarise below, it would seem that there is a technical service bulletin concerning where these 2 specific fault codes are present. I think the technical bulletin with reference (B1HW0175Q0) concerns issues to do with the injectors and that it involved Citroen replacing some of the injectors and/ or injection components. Now I don't have access to the details or the specifics, but researching it seems the content of one of these technical bulletins concerns the following that may be relevant (and I've had to translate this from German in case the grammar isn't quite correct). Note there is an almost identical one where the fault code is P0271 with P0263 - this one below realtes to the P0272 TSB - but the reference I have provided (B1HW0175Q0) relates to your 2 codes. I've just quoted listed the detail relating the the TSB with the P0272 fault - as I believe it is a similar issue).
COMPLAINT: Combustion noise - If the DTC or DTCs P0263, P0266, P0269, P0272 are present

CAUSE:
Noise reduction and correction of injectors out of tolerance.
CUSTOMER SERVICE INTERVENTION:
Query the error codes.
Replacing the diesel injector (s).
Replacing the noise insulation of the diesel injectors.
Required parts
Diesel injectors (part number depending on vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the inspection).
Centering rings (part number depending on vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the inspection).
Gasket Diesel injector (part number depending on vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the check).
Fork support pins (part number depending on vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the inspection).
Flanges of diesel injectors (part number depending on vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the check).
Screw the flanges of the diesel injectors (part number depending on the vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the inspection).
High-pressure fuel lines (part number depending on the vehicle definition) (quantity depending on the result of the inspection).
1 noise insulation (ET number 1982H2).
1 strand fuel return lines (part number depending on vehicle definition).
So I'm wondering if this recall is to do with the above.

As this is expensive I believe that depending on the year and the mileage (Vehicle may not be older than 84 months and under 140,000 km) they may offer partial funding of the repairs - either the labour cost where you pay the parts or the full amount or some gesture of goodwill - it will all depend on the maintenance and other factors as mentioned.

So I think your best bet is to contact your dealer directly and tell them you have been advised of the recall and that you are getting the 2 fault codes for which you understand there is a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) for and quote the reference I provided earlier.

As for the faults which are related to the TSB:

P0271: Injector 4 signal: Short circuit to positive on the circuit (harness, injector, ECU). Electrical fault. Short circuit between the 2 tracks detected for 400 ms when injector 4 is controlled,

Down Grade Modes:
  • Closing of the ECU valve
  • Irreversible deactivation of the vehicle speed limiter
  • Irreversible deactivation of the vehicle cruise control
  • Inhibiting of the exhaust heat recovery function
  • Prohibiting of regeneration of the particle emission filter and stopping of the requests in progress
  • Inhibiting of the injectors reset strategy
  • Cutting of fuel injector 4
  • Switching to fuel "normal reduced flow" mode
  • Deactivation of the request for regeneration of the particle filter from the diagnostic tool
Customer Symptoms:
  • Jerking/stalling
  • Engine acceleration at wrong time
  • Noise
  • Slightly higher fuel consumption
  • Starting problem
  • Smoke from the exhaust
  • Lack of power
Suspect Areas:
  • Fuel injector 4
  • Electrical harness
  • Connectors
P0263: No. 1 cylinder: Injector resetting outside tolerance. Difference of more than 0.8 mg/stroke between the pilot injection and the flow reference value.

Downgrade Modes:
  • Reversible deactivation of the vehicle speed limiter
  • Reversible deactivation of the vehicle cruise control
  • Deactivation of the request for regeneration of the particle filter from the diagnostic tool
Customer Symptoms:
  • Jerking/stalling
  • Engine acceleration at wrong time
  • Noise
  • Slightly higher fuel consumption
  • Starting problem
  • Smoke from the exhaust
  • Lack of power
Suspect Areas:
  • Fuel injector 1
  • Injector classification
  • Poor quality of the fuel or type of fuel
  • Fuel return
  • Inlet valve - Exhaust valve - Spring - Seal
  • Piston - Piston rings - Shaft - Cooling system
  • Conrods
So not a simple one this and I really think your first port of call is the dealer to see what if anything they will do under a goodwill gesture.

Given your vehicle's age I would get on the phone straight away and if you don't get any satisfaction, ring Citroen Head Office direct and complain about it - it does often make a difference if a dealer doesn't want to know.
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help

Marc
api182
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 Aug 2019, 21:04
Location: Aberystwyth
My Cars: 2011 Citroen C4 Picasso 1.6HDi VTR+
2006 Peugeot 407 2.0HDi

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

Post by api182 »

This is great information and very much appreciated!

I'm gutted a bit, we've owned the vehicle for around 2 and a half years now and bought it at only 48k miles. I wish I had known about the recall then! :(

I have kept up with servicing since we've owned it, albeit an independent garage... As our 'local' Citroen dealer is around 40 mile away...

I'll call them first thing in the morning and see what their attitude toward this is!

Many thanks!
User avatar
GiveMeABreak
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 36990
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
Location: West Wales
My Cars: C3 Aircross SUV HDi Flair Peperoncino Red (The Chili Hornet)
C5 X7 2.0 HDi Exclusive Mativoire Beige (The Golden Hornet)
C3 1.6 HDi Exclusive Aluminium Grey (The Silver Hornet)
C5 MK II 2.0 HDi Exclusive Obsidian Black
C5 MK I 2.0 HDi SX Wicked Red
Xantia S2 2.0 HDi SX Hermes Red
C15 Romahome White
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Emerald Green Pearlescent
XM 2.0 Turbo Prestige Polar White
XM 2.0 SX Polar White
CX 20 Polar White
GS 1220 Geranium Red
CX 2.4 Prestige C-Matic Nevada Beige
GS 1000 Cedreat Yellow
x 5644

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Unfortunately, unless it is a safety recall, they won't inform you directly - as invariably it costs them money to rectify - whether in part or in whole (depending on vehicle age and servicing regime etc.). They are not proactive and will feign ignorance unless a customer presents with the issues and only when the VIN is entered onto their systems will they see about the recall.

It's one of the trade-offs of non-dealer servicing - that one may never be aware of a potentially expensive repair. There are even some owners of brand new DS7s that are having continual issues with their vehicles months after buying them - another risk with a new model being driven in the real world!

Perhaps you can emphasise that you do have it regularly serviced (which they cannot hold against you) as long as you can document it that the required servicing has been undertaken at the recommended intervals, given the distance to the dealer. That will be you r strongest point and that therefore there is no way you would of been aware of the recall. As long as you have the servicing record they may be a bit more sympathetic - but they may have to call into head office to get authorisation for any repairs - and may come to an arrangement with you to split some of the costs.

Good luck Monday morning and I hope it turns out favourably!
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help

Marc
User avatar
Old-Guy
Posts: 1798
Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 12:08
Location: Gloucestershire
My Cars: 2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
x 17

Re: Limp Grand C4 Picasso - Injector Failure

Post by Old-Guy »

Apologies for an off-topic comment:-
Having lost confidence in the GC4P and its expensive injection/FAP problems, we P/Xed it for a 2012 Subaru Forester (Petrol Manual) just before Xmas '18. 1st April '19, recall letter from Subaru UK - all valve springs need to be changed. Research on line suggests the number of actual spring failures was quite small and mostly in the US; this is the latest chain-cam engine, but still an interference engine (just). Four day job oil and coolant changed, loan car provided, no charge; total contrast to Peugeot-Citroen who refused to acknowledge that the early DV6C engines are prone injector failure around 60K miles.
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
Post Reply