Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by PhilGreaves »

aerodynamica wrote: 08 Sep 2016, 19:31
of far more corner now is the heavy steering and slow to rise nature in the morning. My cleaning of lhm tank filters etc hasn't helped..I need to get those parts of paul really...i'll message him now..
Hiya, this can be a problem of cars that use the hydraulic 'Flow Divider Valve' FDV in between the HP pump and the Pressure Regulator such as sinker Xantias and PAS BXs and sinker XMs. They fail in a few ways but the main cause seems to be the internal springs going weak alongside a HP pump that's a bit down on output due to age/ miles.

Are you getting the phenomenon of the red STOP light staying lit for ages in the morning as the thing takes for ever to raise up?

You can do one thing to eliminate the HP pump as the cause for this: Start up the engine from overnight rest, wait say 10 seconds and if the STOP light is still on and the suspension not raising, turn the steering wheel and hold it against its resistance. If while it's being held the STOP light goes out and the suspension starts to go up (even slowly) then it's likely the FDV is duff and needs replaced/ serviced.

It might not be this of course but it's a cause that's exclusive to the FDV - equipped cars.

The FDV is interrupting the HP pump flow before it reaches the pressure regulator and if one of its two slide valves sticks it can sink a lot of the HP pump output back to the LHM tank. There's always an unrestricted flow through the PAS pinion valve anyway but this coupled with an FDV internal leak combines to sink the majority of the pump output. By turning the steering while stationary it makes the PAS pinion valve close the LHM flow the most to the PAS ram which acts to build the pressure that also allows the pressure to the regulator to build (and hence, cut out and let the STOP light go out)

It's a simple check to do when you start the engine to give a minot clue to the trouble.

That aside, if turning the steering while stationary doesn't put out the STOP light then it probably isn't a faulty FDV and might therefore be a bad HP pump or slipping belt. :-D


Hi apologies for the slow response- I never saw the reply and haven’t had much time since taking over the columns.

As per previous post and photos my Xantia has no FDV. To digress slightly my BX does have an FDV but its similar symptoms of heavy steering were traced back to a worn and tired steering ram which given its age perhaps wasn’t too surprising.

As i predicted it was the pump. Luckily the garage I use has a mk1 b TD in. They'd attempted to sell this car but no one wanted it so sadly that car went to scrap- nobody came forward for other parts either. The pump was therefore taken off this car (quite a high mileage car but known to be good 150k I think with a good history) and fitted to mine. At least it allowed my car to live on though!! The issues were immediately rectified and driving it home was a revelation- quick to rise and steering finger tip light. It stayed like this for a bout 6 months.

My car is still going, though again the rising is slowing down though so far my steering is ok- not quite as light but nowhere near as heavy as before. I have kept the old pump but even off the car with a clear inspection it shows no signs of external leak. To me this suggests either worn bearing (I have seen bxs with this issue), some internal leak or some other issue. Perhaps it’s noteworthy that the donated pump had done a similar mileage but was in much better condition…or perhaps this is just a red herring? For the moment it’s quite easy to get hold of second hand Xantia pumps but when these dry up I’m not sure what the solution is.

I will of course try once again to improve or possibly fix the issue with a good tank clean etc when the weather improves.

The Xantia is still going strong however and has hit over 192k now. I still prefer it to a lot of other cars but it certainly has its foibles! Given its age (and the Xantia itself is 25 this year don’t forget!!) perhaps this isn’t surprising.

For anyone interested you can follow the progress of the Xantia and other Xantia news in the column. Though I will of course try to frequent this excellent forum more frequently.

Hope to see you all at a rally this year.

Thanks

Phil
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by xantia_v6 »

PhilGreaves wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 19:23 As per previous post and photos my Xantia has no FDV.

Is this the previous post you refer to? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40094&p=365488&hilit=fdv#p365488

I don't understand how a Xantia can have a single outlet pump and power steering without an FDV? Where does the power steering get its hydraulic supply?
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by CitroJim »

Phil, great to see this one's still going :D
xantia_v6 wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 21:34
PhilGreaves wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 19:23 As per previous post and photos my Xantia has no FDV.

Is this the previous post you refer to? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40094&p=365488&hilit=fdv#p365488

I don't understand how a Xantia can have a single outlet pump and power steering without an FDV? Where does the power steering get its hydraulic supply?


There were some very rare early Xantias with no PAS but I believe these were all 1.6 models and never imported into the UK...

So, on that basis I'd be quite sure yours has... Look near to the pressure regulator/accumulator sphere for a small block with four pipes... That will be the FDV..

Also, you can often hear it hissing when steering ;)
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 07:30 Also, you can often hear it hissing when steering ;)

On my mums Xantia sinker (now gone to the scrapyard in the sky) all the way from the neighbours house. :lol:
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by CitroJim »

Mandrake wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 10:58
CitroJim wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 07:30 Also, you can often hear it hissing when steering ;)

On my mums Xantia sinker (now gone to the scrapyard in the sky) all the way from the neighbours house. :lol:


:lol: On mine everybody that knew me and my car could hear me coming from miles away!
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by myglaren »

The clicks and hisses were always a source of amusement for me. Loved them.
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by aerodynamica »

CitroJim wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 07:30 Phil, great to see this one's still going :D
xantia_v6 wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 21:34
PhilGreaves wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 19:23 As per previous post and photos my Xantia has no FDV.

Is this the previous post you refer to? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40094&p=365488&hilit=fdv#p365488

I don't understand how a Xantia can have a single outlet pump and power steering without an FDV? Where does the power steering get its hydraulic supply?


There were some very rare early Xantias with no PAS but I believe these were all 1.6 models and never imported into the UK...

So, on that basis I'd be quite sure yours has... Look near to the pressure regulator/accumulator sphere for a small block with four pipes... That will be the FDV..

Also, you can often hear it hissing when steering ;)


Hey Jim, I think you're right there - I went to see a 1.9 TD VSX for sale in Yorkshire 3-4 years back and it was Mk1 in every way (chevrons on bonnet, no airbag, even had the early distinctive headlight pattern) but had the 2 - output pump and antisink. So I walked away :rofl2:

5 pipes to-from FDV, another give away is that the regulator BIG return rubber pipe on an FDV car is weirdly a tiny, clear pipe the same as those leak off pipes on height correctors and the like.

Also! contrary to things I've read, the FDV on BX and XM/Xantia is not the same!
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by CitroJim »

aerodynamica wrote: 18 Mar 2018, 18:48 Hey Jim, I think you're right there - I went to see a 1.9 TD VSX for sale in Yorkshire 3-4 years back and it was Mk1 in every way (chevrons on bonnet, no airbag, even had the early distinctive headlight pattern) but had the 2 - output pump and antisink. So I walked away :rofl2:


Another one! Paul (CitroenXM) had one exactly like that, a black one... We both thought it was the only one - a real oddity - but it seems not :D
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by Mandrake »

aerodynamica wrote: 18 Mar 2018, 18:48 Hey Jim, I think you're right there - I went to see a 1.9 TD VSX for sale in Yorkshire 3-4 years back and it was Mk1 in every way (chevrons on bonnet, no airbag, even had the early distinctive headlight pattern) but had the 2 - output pump and antisink. So I walked away :rofl2:

Anti-sink was introduced in December 1993. The Chevrons didn't move from the bonnet to the grill until early 1995. So any 1994 Xantia will be anti-sink but with Chevrons on the bonnet. My Dad's 1994 Xantia was like this.
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by ekjdm14 »

CitroJim wrote: 19 Mar 2018, 05:22
aerodynamica wrote: 18 Mar 2018, 18:48 Hey Jim, I think you're right there - I went to see a 1.9 TD VSX for sale in Yorkshire 3-4 years back and it was Mk1 in every way (chevrons on bonnet, no airbag, even had the early distinctive headlight pattern) but had the 2 - output pump and antisink. So I walked away :rofl2:


Another one! Paul (CitroenXM) had one exactly like that, a black one... We both thought it was the only one - a real oddity - but it seems not :D


Now this is something I've not noted before, how did the earlier headlamps differ & up until when were they used please?
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by CitroJim »

ekjdm14 wrote: 20 Mar 2018, 21:47how did the earlier headlamps differ & up until when were they used please?


They were vaguely similar to the elderly glow-worms seen in the RHD XMs... Very poor...

They look the same as later S1 headlights and swappable; that's something needing to be done if not already done...

In my experience they are so dim and poor they border on dangerous (like XM headlights) even when fitted with bright bulbs...
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by ekjdm14 »

Hmm, that sounds a lot like the units on Black... Did they run up till late '95 at all? :?

They're worse than the XM in my honest opinion, certainly on main beam anyway... Good bulbs and switched through relays and still not up to par... Maybe I ought to compare them to White and see if we've got them for some reason.
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previous convictions: totaling 52litres of LHM in one go:
1968 ID19B 'Old Polly' Stellar white
1993 Xantia 1.9 TD SX Mk1 Sinker Silver
1992 XM 2.0 SEi Turbo Manual Anthracite Grey
1982 CX 20 Pallas 'Old Goldy'
1993 XM 2.1 SD Auto Light blue
1993 Xantia 1.9 TD SX Mk1 Sinker light Blue
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1995 Xantia 1.9 D SX Auto Dark green
1977 CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic 'Aphrodite' Regatta Blue
1982 GSA Pallas SE Silver Pearl
1980 CX 2000 Reflex Vallelunga Red
1978 CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic 'Prometheus' Midnight blue
1984 BX 14E 'Cecil the slugmobile' Maroon
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by aerodynamica »

ekjdm14 wrote: 20 Mar 2018, 21:47
CitroJim wrote: 19 Mar 2018, 05:22
aerodynamica wrote: 18 Mar 2018, 18:48 Hey Jim, I think you're right there - I went to see a 1.9 TD VSX for sale in Yorkshire 3-4 years back and it was Mk1 in every way (chevrons on bonnet, no airbag, even had the early distinctive headlight pattern) but had the 2 - output pump and antisink. So I walked away :rofl2:


Another one! Paul (CitroenXM) had one exactly like that, a black one... We both thought it was the only one - a real oddity - but it seems not :D


Now this is something I've not noted before, how did the earlier headlamps differ & up until when were they used please?


Hi, sorry about the delay. Yes the very first Xantias have a much heavier pattern in the glass - quite a distinct look. It really does also correspond to the low performance of the early lights. Jim is right, the later Mk1 glass swaps with these very first ones - the headlight is identical in every way except the glass. I'll try and find a photo of the early pattern versus the later more common Mk1. My Xantia has its early headlights as standard although it had the later type fitted - I swapped them back! Why? because I quite like the look of the proper early patttern even if the output on dip isn't great (I don't find them too bad to be honest) I just want my Mk1 sinker to be almost pure! (.......except for the peugeot wheels... :-D )
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aerodynamica
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1993 Xantia 1.9 TD VSX Mk1 Sinker A.K.A Slugmobile 13'
'Old Katy'
previous convictions: totaling 52litres of LHM in one go:
1968 ID19B 'Old Polly' Stellar white
1993 Xantia 1.9 TD SX Mk1 Sinker Silver
1992 XM 2.0 SEi Turbo Manual Anthracite Grey
1982 CX 20 Pallas 'Old Goldy'
1993 XM 2.1 SD Auto Light blue
1993 Xantia 1.9 TD SX Mk1 Sinker light Blue
1982 BX 16 TRS 'Cyril' Vallelunga Red
1995 Xantia 1.9 D SX Auto Dark green
1977 CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic 'Aphrodite' Regatta Blue
1982 GSA Pallas SE Silver Pearl
1980 CX 2000 Reflex Vallelunga Red
1978 CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic 'Prometheus' Midnight blue
1984 BX 14E 'Cecil the slugmobile' Maroon
1987 Fiat Panda 'the mighty panda'
x 97

Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by aerodynamica »

Here's a (bad) photo of Auld Katy (viewed from a 2CV) with the correct early Mk1 RHD lights. You can see the distinctive heavy patterns in the glass - deleted from later (possibly 1995?) cars.
Image20170812_132737 by Graeme McNulty, on Flickr

Not sure how clear it is but here's a pic of the same car taken by the previous owner, with the later, incorrect Mk1 lights
Imageimage1 by Graeme McNulty, on Flickr
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Re: Sinker xantia scrap or keep, bosch fuel pump issues...

Post by myglaren »

I had an early 'sinker' Xantia and didn't have a problem with the lights other than being aware that the GS lights were better.

It could have been that for many years I was used to working in the dark for up to fourteen hours a day (photographic darkrooms) and in the winter (Sweden) there was no daylight to speak of anyway, so used to very little in the way of illumination.

Even now I walk around the house at night with no lights on.

My Xantia (an 'N' reg) was identical to yours. I loved the colour but was on my own there.

Tried to upload a photo but they are too big, will have to GIMP them :(
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