Electric vehicles-Conversions

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Not exactly the greatest in-depth analysis but this article's headline gives the gist.

Government sets out new powers to shape electric vehicle charging infrastructure

The nitty-gritty springs from this Government Consultation from November 2016 with these 7 powers outlined as part of the Governments response to the consultation to be taken forward into the Modern Transport Bill
from https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... sponse.pdf
The seven powers taken
forward from the consultation are as follows:
a) Power to require operators of publicly accessible chargepoints and
hydrogen refuelling stations, and networks, to provide data in an open
source format on the geographical location and live availability of charging
and refuelling infrastructure


b) Power to require operators of publicly accessible chargepoints and
hydrogen refuelling stations, and networks, to ensure consumers can use
them without the need for multiple memberships

c) Power to specify minimum standards of design and functionality for new
publicly accessible chargepoints and hydrogen refuelling stations and
networks

d) Power to require infrastructure installed for the purposes of charging EVs
to have 'smart' functionality to receive, understand and respond to signals
sent by energy system participants (e.g. Distribution Network Operators
(DNOs), energy suppliers, National Grid or other third parties) for the
purposes of balancing energy supply and demand, and to require any
technological functionality in EVs necessary to ensure ‘smart’ functionality

e) Power to require that technical standards used by operators of
chargepoints and networks comply with the requirements set out in these
measures are available and implemented on an open access basis. This
includes making publicly accessible the necessary protocols to allow the
charging infrastructure to communicate, understand and respond to
signals or grid balancing

f) Power to require that operators of motorway service areas (MSAs) ensure
a minimum provision of electric and hydrogen fuels for ULEVs at MSAs

g) Power to require a minimum provision of electric and hydrogen fuels for
ULEVs at large fuel retailers
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

.....there is more as you might expect from the workings of government, and quite heavy going but along with potential policy proposals their is the inevitable impact assessment.....

Its here for reference..10 strong coffees at the Pickled Egg Library should get you through it :-D

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... ssment.pdf

A small policy intent from the "background" and I have no doubts that the intention is serious, and that other Governments will have similar intentions...
Its goal is a Government manifesto commitment that by 2050 nearly all cars and vans should
be zero emission vehicles, which will mean all new cars and vans should be zero emission vehicles by
2040.
Yes its slightly woolly just in case its nowhere near achieved and personally I would like it stronger and quicker, with the UK leading the way, and the associated economic activity and expertese springing from the process in infrastructure/ vehicle manufacturing/power generation like our pioneering with rail transport before, being exported all over the world.

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Peter.N. »

Ah well. I shall be dead by then, I enjoyed my motoring when there were very few cars on the road and no speed limits. :wink:

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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

On the BBC this morning there is mention (and, in the next half hour, showing) the revival of the Sinclair C5 electric trike.
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:On the BBC this morning there is mention (and, in the next half hour, showing) the revival of the Sinclair C5 electric trike.
Dear god no. :-D

And in another 5 years, Segways will make a comeback. :rofl2:
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Re: RE: Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by mickeymoon »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:On the BBC this morning there is mention (and, in the next half hour, showing) the revival of the Sinclair C5 electric trike.
And there you have, in a nutshell, why the British car industry is no more.

Cit/Peugeot/Mitsu - C Zero
Nissan Leaf
Vauxhall Ampera
Renault Zoe
Tesla Model S
Polo E-up (yorkshire?!)

and from here...

A revived Sinclair C5.

Great.
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Governments do move at a pace which is hopefully completely outstripped by advances in technology so hopefully the pace will increase, with them encouraging rather than hampering progress.

The general intent should surely serve notice on vehicle manufacturers, and their shareholders that in a relatively short space of time continued investment in and production of new diesel/petrol models will produce no returns, and if they don't put themselves in a position to grab market share of EV's or FCEV's they are unlikely to survive.

Is there a single auto-company now that doesn't have an electric option? Will have to look up Morgan but it wouldn't surprise me if by now they have!

Everyone in Europe is falling over themselves to try to seduce Tesla to set up gigafactory2 in their Country but I did enjoy one of the comments at the bottom of this article from Elektrek on the subject....
from https://electrek.co/2016/11/29/tesla-gi ... h-efforts/
Comment from Ian
Why bother with Tesla, these countries could build their own gigafactories, goodness me, Tesla's technology is Panasonic's. Any old fool can construct a large factory shed and place lithium cell manufacturing machines in it. Do Renault, or Volvo, or Fiat or Daimler not know how to make objects or put manufacturing robots in a factory building? Seriously, it's like having MacDonalds restaurants in France, or Dominoes pizzas in Italy. What's wrong with you Europeans . I think I will sell toy bricks to the Danish, and Flat pack furniture to the Swedes, or perhaps set up a charity to help Europeans tie their own shoe laces
Yes Tesla have a bit of an edge, and Elon Musk is a very busy boy, and very good at securing huge investments for his vision, and worldwide coverage for his brand. But surely there are some budding European, or maybe even British "Elon Musks"......Maybe Europe need an "Elon Musk 2" or 3, or 10, rather than a gigafactory2. After watching his presentation in Dubai....he's not the worlds greatest exponent of powerpoint! but everyone loves the TESLA brand and theres no problem filling their "order books".

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Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I have just watched the item. The new vehicle is designed by Sir Clive Sinclairs' nephew, it is streamlined, and three times faster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38960275
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Post by Mandrake »

Peter.N. wrote:Ah well. I shall be dead by then, I enjoyed my motoring when there were very few cars on the road and no speed limits. :wink:
I'm really torn.

Half of me is really impatient for cost effective long range, fun to drive EV's to arrive, (apart from the cost effective bit, they have already!) and having an electronics background I am perfectly comfortable with the increase in electronics and decrease in mechanical's that an EV affords! I am also very happy about the reduction in pollution, reduction in servicing costs and elimination of many points of failure that an ICE car has. It's the way of the future and I'm confident that the changeover will happen well within my driving life time. (I'm "only" 41)

On the other hand I am actually already finding myself feeling pangs of nostalgia for classic Petrol (not Diesel!) cars including my Xantia, even though I am still driving it and haven't even owned or driven an EV yet! :lol: In some ways a modern petrol engine is a marvel of engineering, although it has taken them 100 years to get to the degree of refinement and reliability they have now. I grew up on 70's cars like the Citroen GS (my first car) which didn't have any computers, and only the most basic points kettering ignition system. I don't think it even had a radio.

I enjoyed learning about the mechanical's, how to fix and maintain them myself (although I'd never say that I was "good" at mechanical work, I still struggle with some jobs you guys seem to find easy) and the cost savings and satisfaction of doing it yourself, especially when you're young with lots of time on your hands and no money!

However I seem to be reaching that stage of my life already where I just don't have the time to spend maintaining an old car as a daily driver. Having a 10 month old son might be part of the reason ;) but having a house that still needs renovation work doing is probably another... point is as much as I love my Xantia and the hands on repair and maintenance work, having to do it to keep an old daily driver and only car on the road is somewhat stressful and not nearly as enjoyable as the work could be if it was done under less urgency. (Must get the car back on the road before Monday and work in the rain to get it finished etc)

I could reduce the driving portion of my commute costs significantly (by half, probably) if I switched to a stinky Diesel, but apart from not enjoying driving a 2 litre Diesel, the writing is now on the wall that they will be public enemy number one in the next few years, and I'd still have an ICE car that has all the points of failure of a petrol car (plus a few more like DPF) and I'd be buying an old car with someone else's skeletons, as that's all I'd be able to afford in the Xantia size range. I couldn't afford to tax and maintain two polluting ICE cars, so the enjoyment of driving the V6 would be out the window as I'd have to sell it, then I'd be back in the situation of one ICE car which I now didn't enjoy driving which I still had to keep on the road at all costs for my commute, so all the same maintenance stresses I have now, but with Diesel which I am far less familiar with fixing!

Enter a small very cheap EV like the C-Zero. I can buy a 5 year old one for £5k with 10k miles on the clock in near new condition and a near perfect battery. I can do my commute mileage for 1/10th of the cost of a petrol and 1/5th of the cost of a Diesel on standard rate electricity or half as much again on split plan night rate if I had it, and this is on fuel costs alone. There is also no yearly car tax, and vastly reduced maintenance costs and points of failure. (No timing belts, no exhaust etc etc) The car also has ISO fix mounts for our car seat base that the Xantia lacks and a 4 star NCAP rating vs 1.5 stars for the Xantia! So probably quite a bit safer to be transporting a baby in despite it being a smaller car.

If I just replace my current car portion of my daily commute with the EV that's only 16 miles round trip on a car that can do 50 miles in winter with the heater on and up to 70 in summer with no heater. Plenty. I could also replace my train journey to Glasgow IF I could find somewhere to park... that would then be about 34 miles round trip - still plenty, and enough left to grab groceries after work, and it would eliminate an expensive train season ticket. (£89.50 a month at the moment)

I'd have two cars so never have to worry about panicking to get one back on the road for Monday so I could take the time to work slowly and carefully on the V6 with jobs like timing belt etc... I could enjoy driving it on the weekends or on long trips away knowing that I'm no longer running a "classic" and fairly rare car into the ground through a daily grind. The EV becomes the "practical" daily commuter and shopping cart and the Xantia becomes the fun, long distance, large load and emergency backup commuter car should the EV have a problem.

As the Xantia is the last true green blooded Citroen I'm feeling nostalgic for it for that reason too. A small EV for the daily grind would help me prolong the life of the Xantia and hang onto it for that much longer as a fun to drive car before I finally have to let it go and let Hydractive 2 fade into memory...
Last edited by Mandrake on 15 Feb 2017, 09:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

Simon, do all you can to keep the Xantia as a hobby car - even if it means finding somewhere to store it for a while. I've been where you are with a young family and a house needing work. During that time I let all my toys go and always regretted it... I can guarantee you'll regret it too...

I had to then wait until my kids were grown up... Don't make the same mistake as I did...

For that reason my Activa will never leave me even if all others do to make way for the EV...
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Also consider the fact that (currently) most battery electric cars have a limited range, and take time to recharge, while petrol/diesel cars have a greater range, with fast refuelling (and plenty of petrol stations to top up at). While there may be times when you (and your family) will consider the money tied up in the petrol car, you should also consider the options that the same car leaves open to you that may be denied if you did not have it.
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Post by CitroJim »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:Also consider the fact that (currently) most battery electric cars have a limited range, and take time to recharge, while petrol/diesel cars have a greater range, with fast refuelling (and plenty of petrol stations to top up at). While there may be times when you (and your family) will consider the money tied up in the petrol car, you should also consider the options that the same car leaves open to you that may be denied if you did not have it.
True James but as I see it if an EV will do most of what you need then for the times it won't simply hire a suitable vehicle...

It's what I'd do. After all, most of us don't own a big white van but when we need one we go out and hire one... Same principle applies for when you might need a car to undertake a long trip beyond EV range...
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Mandrake »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:Also consider the fact that (currently) most battery electric cars have a limited range, and take time to recharge, while petrol/diesel cars have a greater range, with fast refuelling (and plenty of petrol stations to top up at). While there may be times when you (and your family) will consider the money tied up in the petrol car, you should also consider the options that the same car leaves open to you that may be denied if you did not have it.
That's why a C-Zero would be purely a second car for me. (Although technically it would be the primary car as it would do more mileage!) It couldn't replace the Xantia for long trips, nor for carrying large loads (which outside of the daily commute, does happen quite a bit) so the C-Zero would get used whenever possible with the Xantia used at other times, and the Xantia also used for fun.

I think a specific use, second car is a good "toe dipping" strategy to get into the EV market, at least at the cheap end of the market. For most of us it will be quite a while yet before an affordable EV can truly replace an ICE car without any hesitations.
Last edited by Mandrake on 15 Feb 2017, 10:13, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

True, Jim, but having a nice car in the background, ready for emergencies (or for times when hire vehicles cost more, such as at Christmas) is a comforting feeling. Plus, what reasonably priced hire vehicle can compete with a nice, well maintained Citroen Xantia V6?
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Re: Electric cars/vans/bikes-Conversions/Secondhand..etc

Post by CitroJim »

Hell Razor5543 wrote: Plus, what reasonably priced hire vehicle can compete with a nice, well maintained Citroen Xantia V6?
True and one reason perhaps I keep my Activa...
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