LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS CITROEN C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PLEASE

[dnsey]

How do even poor mechanics manage to do this?
Each type of resevoir / filler carries a clear warning about the type of fluid required. Surely, even if they had some idea of substitution by the other type, it would raise enough doubt for them to check the manual.

[cachaciero]

A few comments on some of the things touched upon.

1. Mixing of LDS and LHM

Having carried out some tests involving a jam jar as far as i can see LDS and non-synthetic i.e mineral based engine oil are totally miscible i.e they don't seperate out once mixed. I no longer have any LHM to do the same test but it is my belief that that the results would be no different.
Interestingly the "mixture" (50/50) would froth quite quickly when shaken and the mixture holds air bubbles for an appreciable time, however the results were little different when same test carried out on pure LDS.

I do wonder if the foaming as described by Citroenmad had more to do with the fact that there was a leak in the system rather than the fact that it was an oil mix, bearing in mind that the resevoir would in a good sealed system be running at a slight vacuum.

2 Comma LDS equivalent is green in colour.
I have a lot of reservations about the Comma LDS being the same oil if it's green.
The reason is that oil is produced to a specification and part of that specification will cover color aspect. i.e LHM is green because the spec for LHM says it will be green same for ATX and I assume that the spec for LDS is orange I say that because I can't actually find a spec for it but I believe that would be the case.
So basically what I am saying if it ain't orange it isnt to the LDS spec.

3. getting the garage to put it right.

Well Old-Guy covers it pretty well. It would be interesting to go back to garage and ask them casually if they could supply a litre of oil for emergency top up purposes just to see what they supply, this before waving the big stick

If no satisfaction is obtained then a complaint to trading standards might be worth a shot, they are purportedly getting quite hot on cowboy garages.

4. Draining all the old oil out and bleeding the system.
Well my opinion is that a bit of LHM left in the system isn't going to cause a problem.
I wouldn't drain the tank down as described by Citroen unless you have a means of pressurising the resevoir when refilling.

If one doesn't want to break the system down to do it the Citroen way then I believe the following procedure would work.:-

1.Identify the front and rear bleed points on the suspension distribution manifolds.
2 On the front bleed points fit suitable sized bit of pipe other end in waste bucket capable of holding a couple of litres.
3 Put car on low suspension.
4 Remove cover over LDS tank remove cap.
5 Open front bleed screw, take care, car will drop a little at the front.
6 If pump does not run select suspension to normal height.
7 Pump should run and fluid (LHM) should be pumped out of the pipe, run until tank almost empty, add half litre of LDS wait until orange LDS comes out of pipe, close bleed screw, put suspension to low.
8 Do a few lock to lock movements of the steering wheel.
9 Open front bleed screw.
10 if pump doesn't run select suspension to normal, pump should run and greeny orangy fluid should come out of pipe( LDS/LHM mix.Residue of LHM in pump plus LHM from steering system.)
11 Run until the tank is almost empty, top up tank with LDS as soon as orange LDS is running clear with no bubbles from the bleed screw close the bleed screw.
12 Put drain hose on rear bleed screw open bleed screw, note rear suspension may drop a little, as soon as orange LDS is running through with no air bubbles close bleed screw remove pipe.
13 Put suspension on low, top up resevoir until the fluid level is up to the bottom of the filler tube fit cap, remove bleed pipe put car back together and go and drive.

At the end of this there will be a small amount of LHM mixed in but I really can't see that this will cause a problem.

The reason for running the pump until the reservoir is ALMOST empty is to keep the pump primed with oil thus obviating the need to pressurise the reservoir to prime the pump which may be needed if the pump gets to start sucking air.

Caveats. This is a theoretical procedure which I have not done myself but cannot see why it should not work.
It is assumed that with the front bleed screw open the pump will not get to a pressure high enough to pump up the rear suspension, this may not be true.

It may be that one does not need to pressurise the reservoir to prime the pump

It has probably taken me longer to write this than it would to do.

Car ideally needs to be on a ramp to do this i.e weight needs to be on wheels.

cachaciero

[galonki]

Guys based on my situation, i know for a fact i am not going to go the car mechanic and argue or deemand a refund; if this was a different service maybe i would but not this time.

So, most likely i am planning to just follow the procedure in the pdf guide on how to drain and refill it myself with correct lds fluid.

My last question and thank you so much for all your help, after i have drained and replaced the fluid is it ESSENTIAL to bleed the system from air etc. ?

Or can i drive it and everything should work ok.

Thanks.

[myglaren]

If you follow cachaciero's guide and not let any air in you should be fine.

[cachaciero]

Guys based on my situation, i know for a fact i am not going to go the car mechanic and argue or deemand a refund; if this was a different service maybe i would but not this time.

So, most likely i am planning to just follow the procedure in the pdf guide on how to drain and refill it myself with correct lds fluid.

My last question and thank you so much for all your help, after i have drained and replaced the fluid is it ESSENTIAL to bleed the system from air etc. ?

Or can i drive it and everything should work ok.

Thanks.

Air in the suspension system is NOT good, it will alter the suspension characteristics.
There are those who will say that raising and lowering the suspension a few times will get all the air out which was a common trick on older Cits however I am not convinced that this works on the C5 due to the relatively long lengths of common pressure / return pipe, even more so now I have seen just how long air bubbles in the oil remain in suspension.

As an aside to this it has given me further food for thought as regards the H3+ system. There have been many reports of these cars being "rough" and in that I include my own. Now there are two aspects to air in the system on these cars one is if there is air in the system it alters the suspension characteristics, too much and crashing on the bump stops is a possibility the second issue is operation of the third sphere assembly this relies on a valve which requires pressure to operate what happens if air bubbles remain trapped within the valve assembly? how much does it affect operation of the valve.

I have followed Citroens procedure using a Lexia to bleed the system a couple of times but it has only improved the situation slightly and I am not convinced in my own mind that all air has been extracted.

It would be an interesting experiment to fit a vac pump and gauge to the reservoir and apply some vacuum to see how much air can be "sucked" out of the system.
Anybody got an old spare LDS reservoir cap they no longer need?

cachaciero

[galonki]

Ok guys so are you saying i should not carry out the procedure as listed in the pdf? Because i will not be able to pressurise?

has anyone carried out the procedure as listed in the cit pdf successfully?
without pressurising or bleeding which neither i think i can do myself.

cachareo thanks for your method but it does sure sound more complicated than the cit method. maybe its just me.

in summary,
i was planning to just drain the reservour tank by cit method; and then refill with lds to correct level, in my opinion i thought the little bit of lhm thats left behind is not gona cause any problem.

and that would be it refit the pipe under the reservour and finished nothing more, no bleeding no pressurising.

So how likely do you think the above will not be successful, as in the suspension will not work properly NOTICABLY not perfectionatly ???

I will use the answer to above to decide, cause i am starting to feel like just leaving the blood* LHM in that cit.

And thanks for all your contributions.

[myglaren]

As cachaciero says, if you allow air into the pump you will need to pressurise as it is not self priming - at least that is the generally accepted theory, yet to be disproven.

Have a look on the Lexia Map for an owner near you (H20cooler?) that could operate the valves for you.

As long as you don't let air into the pump then you shouldn't have to pressurise.
There is a way of ensuring - or at least helping to ensure that it doesn't get airlocked.
If you add a piece of hose onto an LDS bottle cap* and invert the bottle with the hose just below the surface of the LDS in the reservoir then as the level drops, LDS will be released from the bottle into the reservoir until the opening in the hose is again below the level of the LDS in the reservoir. You may need to experiment a bit with flow rates and it always helps to have an assistant there in case of emergencies and to observe the progress.

*There may be a commercially available option - gearbox oil bottles always used to come with such an attachment. The last ones I bought didn't though.

[cachaciero]

Ok guys so are you saying i should not carry out the procedure as listed in the pdf? Because i will not be able to pressurise?

has anyone carried out the procedure as listed in the cit pdf successfully?
without pressurising or bleeding which neither i think i can do myself.

cachareo thanks for your method but it does sure sound more complicated than the cit method. maybe its just me.

It really isn't that difficult I don't have a 2.0 ltr so i am not sure exactly where the front manifold is for the suspension but I think it may be accessible from the top at the back of the engine myglaren would be able to confirm that.
You could just follow part of my procedure and pump out most of the reservoir through the front bleed and then top up with LDS. This will leave you with a greater proportion of LHM in the mix. You could repeat the process in a week or so which will get you down to much lower levels of LHM in the mix at the cost of another bottle of LDS.

in summary,
i was planning to just drain the reservour tank by cit method; and then refill with lds to correct level, in my opinion i thought the little bit of lhm thats left behind is not gona cause any problem.

and that would be it refit the pipe under the reservour and finished nothing more, no bleeding no pressurising.

So how likely do you think the above will not be successful, as in the suspension will not work properly NOTICABLY not perfectionatly ???

about 99% ! (not successful) based upon both what we know what happens and what we believe happens.

I will use the answer to above to decide, cause i am starting to feel like just leaving the blood* LHM in that cit.

If you do please come back in a few months and tell us how you get on because you will be in part answering a question which we have all voiced at sometime bearing in mind the cost of LDS

And thanks for all your contributions.

[acrowot]

Sorry to hijack this thread but the LDS level in my 2003 C5 is low and I have just been to Eurocarparts and they say that their Carplan LDS is correct for this vehicle it says on it that it is for power steering and suspension and is suitable for the C5, their Tech dept. confirms this, it is Green in colour but they say it is definately not LHM it is LDS, what do you gents think?

[myglaren]

I think that I would prefer to stick to Total LDS as Citroen specify.
Alternatives may be fine but why take the risk?

[cachaciero]

Sorry to hijack this thread but the LDS level in my 2003 C5 is low and I have just been to Eurocarparts and they say that their Carplan LDS is correct for this vehicle it says on it that it is for power steering and suspension and is suitable for the C5, their Tech dept. confirms this, it is Green in colour but they say it is definately not LHM it is LDS, what do you gents think?

As I said previously I believe but am not sure that the spec for LDS will define colour Ergo if it's not orange then it is not to spec as regards colour which opens the question where else is it not to spec.?

You pays yer money and take yer chances, is it important? is the use of LDS really that critical? personally I have my doubts.

As an aside removed the front suspension spheres the other day interestingly the seals have the green mark which I would associate with any seal on an LHM system.

While on this subject topping up levels.

I have seen two Citroen documents that have different conditions for checking fluid levels:-

1. With car on low suspension check the fluid level in the tank (either to mark on reservoir or to the bottom of the filler tube)

2. With suspension de-pressurised check fluid level in the tank da de da.......


This I can say, if you fill to the bottom of the filler tube on low suspension and then de-pressurise the suspension using the Lexia a lot of LDS will overflow out of the filler at least that was my experience.

cachaciero

[myglaren]

It really isn't that difficult I don't have a 2.0 ltr so i am not sure exactly where the front manifold is for the suspension but I think it may be accessible from the top at the back of the engine myglaren would be able to confirm that.

I believe that this may be what you mean. It's the only likely looking widget that I can see. Apologies for the delay.

[dnsey]

Interestingly, Total's description of LHM says that it is immiscible and incompatible with synthetic fluids - this would include LDS. Another manufacturer's LDS specification indicates that it prevents system corrosion, so perhaps it is important to have at least mostly LDS in HA3 systems!

[cachaciero]

Interestingly, Total's description of LHM says that it is immiscible and incompatible with synthetic fluids - this would include LDS. Another manufacturer's LDS specification indicates that it prevents system corrosion, so perhaps it is important to have at least mostly LDS in HA3 systems!

Well in my admiteddly rough and read test I didn't have any LHM and used mineral engine oil.

If somebody out there has both a drop of LDS and LHM lying around it would be interesting to carry out the same test I did. i.e get a clean glass jar and put into it a 50/50 mix of LDS and LHM and see what happens. My mix of engine oil and LDS shows no signs of seperation after a week or so. The one thing I have noticed is that the mixture no longer foams so readily and does not appear to aereate so easily either.

As regards prevention of corrosion using LDS well my understanding is that LDS is very slightly hygroscopic which is why citroen advise not using oil that has been standing in halfused bottles. LHM can't comment except to say that in all my years with cars using LHM I have never seen any signs of internal corrosion of hydraulic components.

It might be worth bearing in mind that LHM in a "normal" cit runs much hotter than LDS does in a C5.

cachaciero

[fender77]

Hello

I would like to ask some questions about refilling the hydraulic oil,
The seller (unprofessional) parts store, gave me the wrong oil LHM PLUS. Now I need to change To LDS the all hydraulic oil reservoir.
I have a C5 2003 HYDRACTIVE 3 I opened the 2003 pdf file, I didn't found the de-pressurizing and draining- filling- bleeding procedure, I assume it's similar to the 2005 pdf, am I right?

1. Do I need to de-pressurizing the hydraulic system before changing the oil before draining, filling and bleeding? If yes how I can find the place of the front and the back suspension screw assuming I use the "without diagnostic tools" (page 312 - (2005) %20C5_C8.pdf)? I saw the sketch and I need the macro sketch to find it, how can I do that?

2. When draining, filling and bleeding it says to: "place the suspension height control in the "low" position"(page 314), is that mean to the lowest position of the car that say STOP (in the screen display inside my car)?
3. In the draining filling, bleeding procedures what is the part that I get rid from air bubbles, I understand that when making 0.5 bar pressure in the bleeding, the air bubbles have no way to go because the reservoir is all under pressure and the system is close?
4. After bleeding do I must to do the "checking and topping up the LDS fluid level" (page316) ?
Thank you very much I'm grateful about any help from the professional teem.