Engine Tapping Noises

[Bingo 59]

Hi All

I have 2009 Berlingo 1.6 hdi 110 with 66,000 miles, always maintained and never driven hard. The Friday before Christmas I noticed a light hollow tapping noise coming from the engine, I thought it was a noisy tappet but it got worse and louder, like all sixteen tappets are loose, a couple of times I heard a screeching noise, I can smell exhaust fumes in the car (I thought they were from cars in front of me) but I noticed that I could see exhaust smoke leaking from the turbo. The injectors seem ok and I took the auxilary belt off (changed it at 64,000 because I could here a slight ticking noise, didn`t make any difference) and it made no difference, there is no warning light and no loss of power just a bad noise, however, from idle, if I press the throttle pedal to 1,000 revs there is a slight hesitation. Has anybody else had these symtoms and know what the cause is please.

[sparksie]

Couple of things to look at, but not a definite answer.
A blow at the exhaust manifold can sometimes sound tappety, at least until it gets worse.
With modern alloy heads, if this is the source of the noise, you can find the mating face on the head has become burned where the leak is happening, so you really need to catch it early.
The HDI can suffer from injector blow-by, with similar results, if not dealt with promptly.
Doubtless, others will be along shortly with more suggestions, but that's my tuppence worth, without hearing it!
Given how quickly this seems to have progressed, I suspect something is working loose and, if there's exhaust smoke visible around the turbo, it may be that the down-pipe is coming loose, which might give you rattly noises too.
A final thought, concerning the hesitation. A BIT of a stretch, this, but if you have a leak in the exhaust, particularly upstream of the DPF/cat, it will upset the whole feedback loop and probably cause other running issues and bring on the eml, so a hiccup is possibly the first noticeable symptom.

[Michel]

Loose injector bolts and/or leaky injector seals. Take the engine cover off and look around the injectors themselves - is there crud and oily residue?

The joint to the DPF from the turbo can work loose and give soot around the area and the smell of exhaust fumes too

[Peter.N.]

I would second or even third injector leakage.

Peter

[Bick]

Do what the other guys have suggested but also:
Check your turbo spindle play asap to eliminate sump oil pickup blockage.
Drop the oil and check for sludge in the sump.

[Bingo 59]

Spoke to the workshop manager this morning at the Citroen shop where I bought the car new. He thinks that my engine has oil starvation to the camshafts and said to try an engine flush, if that doesn`t work its a new engine.

[moizeau]

Where has it been serviced and how often? Same place? 66k is nothing. To suggest an engine flush seems strange. Did he actually pay any attention to the car and listen / drive it?

[sparksie]

Hmm.
Not a common occurrence on a HDI.
Easy to check, though a bit messy.
Have a look under the cam cover...

[Bingo 59]

I had a long chat with the workshop manager over the phone and what he said made sense to me. If the engine has oil starvation to the top, the hydraulic cam followers will be starved of oil and they won`t open fully and thus, sound like noisy tappets (it started with one noisy tappet). If an oil flush fails to clear the restriction I will have to take the top off myself and investigate where the restriction is, the engine still runs but is too noisy, so some oil is getting up there otherwise the valves wouldn`t open. I rang them before for a quote to change the timing chain tensioner (about the same work time) and was given £2000! (I really didn't want the hassle to do it myself, on the drive in winter and at Christmas). I do all the servicing my self with quality parts. I`ve been thinking what could have caused a restriction and have come up with two possible reasons, the Bosch oil filter (first time use) or, over the last four months or so I`ve only driven short distances to work and back, eight miles each way. I will try the engine flush over the weekend and report back.

[sparksie]

Hi
They will actually run with the tappets deflated, but only the very brave, or mechanically unsympathetic will let them for more than a few seconds.
Yes, would love to hear how this pans out.
No harm to try changing the filter. You may have got a bad one, or just incorrect for your car.
Always do the simple things first.
However, this theory does not account for the exhaust fumes you say you could smell in the cabin, nor the smoke around the turbo, so don't discount the other suggestions out of hand, quite yet.

[myglaren]

If I recall correctly then Mandrake had a bit of a problem with hydraulic tappets a few years ago.
Can't remember the solution but I'm sure he will.

[Paul-R]

Might be completely wrong on this but I have a vague recollection of someone towing a car in gear to spin the engine and get oil pressure up.

[RichardW]

If I recall correctly then Mandrake had a bit of a problem with hydraulic tappets a few years ago.
Can't remember the solution but I'm sure he will.

Simon had convinced himself that the tappets were at fault on his first V6, but moved the car on before he ever fully got to the bottom of it.

Might be completely wrong on this but I have a vague recollection of someone towing a car in gear to spin the engine and get oil pressure up.

Lighty has reported that he generally has to tow start 1.6 HDis after the cams have been out as the starter cannot build enough oil pressure in the lifters to get compression.

Back to the OP...

The early 1.6 HDis are not exactly unknown for oil supply problems - even in well maintained units. The first casualty is usually the turbo as the filter in the oil feed pipe is a) smaller and b) finer than the pick up in the sump. I rather suspect that is what is making the noise here - the shaft wears and the fins start to make contact with the housing causing all sorts of racket. If the oil pressure is low due to blocked sump pick up, then they tend to rattle for the first couple of seconds after start up, and there is a low knocking noise at idle - shortly after that the oil pressure light comes on! However, if the turbo oil filter is still fitted, the turbo will to toast long before that... A leaking injector can sound just like a worn cam lobe, and will result in exhaust fumes being sucked into the cabin. I would proceed as follows:

DO NOT drive it!
Pop off the air inlet to the turbo and check for play in the shaft. If there is more than barely detectable play then it's had it. I can tell you how to go about fixing it if this is the case.
If the turbo checks out, then I would drop the sump (not as hard as it sounds) and remove the oil pick and check the strainer. If it's got crud in it, then rip it out. Then remove the DPF and the turbo oil feed banjo bolt and rip the strainer out of the there. Put it all back together and see what it sounds like.
If it's still barking, then listen carefully to each of the injectors to see if they are chuffing.
If the top end is genuinely knackered, then I would either scrap it, or if the car is otherwise good, get another engine and drop it in. Getting the top off one of these can be a night mare if the injectors don't want to come out.

[sparksie]

Yes, there's not much point in sticking with it if the top end is genuinely damaged. These are plentiful and cheap and the job of swapping the complete engine is a walk in the park, compared to stripping it down and fixing it.
Then there's the damage that will undoubtedly have occurred elsewhere. It won't be restricted to the head. Oil starvation produces swarf that migrates around the engine, turning the fluids into grinding media and it's practically impossible to clean it all out, so your rebuilt head will get contaminated and self destruct, producing more swarf...etc
BUT... known oil strainer issues aside, these are pretty bulletproof engines. They do suffer from injector blow-by and the plastics can become brittle, just like any other engine, but they're not known for eating themselves.
PSA do the French thing, where they build cars around something that's going to need to come out, but make little or no provision for it, so expect some skinned knuckles and the starter will play hide and seek like a pro, but can be left sitting on the prop shaft once you get it loose, until you create a big enough gap for it.
I still usually lift engines out the top, with my trusty crane, unless I'm taking the drivetrain out complete for some reason, but that's a mental block of mine, I think. There's little difference in time, dropping the whole unit out the bottom and splitting it on the floor, if you have the room and the facilities.
Hopefully, you won't need to do any of this, though...

[RichardW]

Pretty sure the engine will not come out the top on these, but it could come out the front if the bumper / slam panel was removed. You'd need to get the AC evacuated first if fitted, as I'm pretty sure there is not enough flex in the AC pipes to get the compressor out of the way enough for an out the front. This was my plan on our C4 Pic if the engine was goosed after the low oil pressure event - however, it was fine after I cleaned out the pick up strainer. Stupidly didn't remove it the first time, so I had to have the sump off again a few months later when it did it again - ripped the strainer out after that, and no more problems!