My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

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kenbw2
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My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by kenbw2 » 02 Oct 2018, 23:39

A couple of years ago my '96 Synergie's XUD9TE timing belt snapped. It took a lot of damage, I can see the camshaft is literally snapped so that's toast.

It's been waiting to go to the scrapyard for a while, but I'd be sad to see it go. It's not worth re-engining it, and that's definitely beyond my skills. But I figured I could have a bash at replacing the whole head as I can do that in-place.

I'm not looking to spend loads on it as it might be a waste of time anyway. I'm mostly doing it to see if I can.

A couple of questions.

- What bolts will need to come out? I was expecting to find a video on how to replace a head gasket but can't seem to find anything unfortunately. I can see the large torx bolts near the injectors, but I assume there are way more than that, especially round the back. If anyone could point me to a walkthrough I'd appreciate it.

- As for acquiring a new head, my brother took an N/A XUD9 out of his '95 (I think) 405 I can use for free that I already have next to it. Can N/A heads be used on turbo blocks? I guess I'd have to swap the injectors over.

- If I need to acquire a new head, I'm cautious of getting one that's nackered. What would be a good way to make sure I get a good'un, short of seeing it running?

- Given I'm not looking to spend loads on it, am I doomed to failure if I don't get the head skimmed? I'm thinking I could see if it runs, and if it does then I can invest in getting it done properly.
Last edited by kenbw2 on 03 Oct 2018, 11:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Michel
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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by Michel » 03 Oct 2018, 00:09

Honestly Ken, it would be easier to hire a hoist and find a complete engine and swap it over. If you're confident of doing a head , then you'll be able to do an engine swap. It's often easier!

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by kenbw2 » 03 Oct 2018, 00:13

Who said I'm confident doing a head!

To be honest, a full engine swap is beyond what I'm willing to invest in it. Drive shafts, gearboxes, clutches, fuel lines, coolant, wiring looms etc etc, Maybe I'm being naive, but a head surely is a lot less work.

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by NewcastleFalcon » 03 Oct 2018, 06:33

If you want to amuse yourself back in 2010 I did the same job you are contemplating.

The link here ties together the various threads I started in the course of the job, and the helpful advice from forum members.

Yes not as user friendly as a decent youtube video but excellent advice along the way!

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32111#p234418

Regards Neil

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by RichardW » 03 Oct 2018, 11:57

It’s probably easier said than done…

Drain the coolant
Remove (what’s left of) the timing belt and the camshaft pulley
Remove the injector pipes
Disconnect the coolant outlet at the back of head
Disconnect the coolant pipe running to the 3 way connector near No 4 glow plug if fitted
Remove any air pipes over the engine
Undo the manifolds, then remove the studs (wow, that’s easy to write down!)
Remove the thermostat housing
Disconnect the glow plug feed wire
Remove the vac pump from the NS end of the head if fitted
It may be necessary to remove the RH engine mount as some have bolts / dowels into the head.
Check that nothing else is connected to or obscuring the head, then progressively undo the head bolts from the centre outwards, then when all undone lift the head off.

To reassemble, clean the head and block well – check the head for flatness; if you are using a replacement that has not been overheated it may well be flat enough. Set the pistons half way down the bores – to avoid any potential valve / piston clash! Check the valve clearances in the new head. Fit the gasket to the block, then drop the head on carefully. Torque up the head bolts, the rebuild everything else.
On early engines, the N/A cam was slightly ‘hotter’ than the TD cam, but I don’t know if this was carried over into later engines; otherwise the head should fit. Just check that the cam has the dog drive for the vac pump if needed.

Any Haynes manual that covers cars with this engine will give you a reasonable hint towards doing it.

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by Gibbo2286 » 03 Oct 2018, 12:23

Undo the manifolds, then remove the studs (wow, that’s easy to write down!)


Ain't it just :-D

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur » 03 Oct 2018, 12:30

I'd also far rather replace the lump complete than do the Head complete, you can buy a secondhand engine for less than the cost of a set of Head Bolts and a Gasket Set, too.

But seeing as you fancy having a go, why not give the Head a try initially and if it that stalls, have a go at having the lump out complete.

Last two engines I did (ZX and 306) without a Hoist, just raise the body, tilt the lump onto its back and drag it out.

Loosen the Hub Nuts first by the way, 35mm on my 405. Before you jack it or remove the Road Wheels.

Have an A4 Pad, a Stash of numbered Sandwich bags, Digital Camera or phone and a Roll of Masking or similar tape to keep track of everything. Keep notes and re-assemble in reverse order.

Also: do have a think about getting yourself a spares vehicle for £50 or so, something that you can see running; and have a go at having the engine out. If it goes well, maybe you'll not have to wave a sad goodbye to the Synergie.

Plenty of advice freely available here if you're stuck.

Could be a lot of fun and a huge confidence boost! Sounds like you've nothing to lose.
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RichardW
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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by RichardW » 03 Oct 2018, 13:21

Gibbo2286 wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 12:23
Undo the manifolds, then remove the studs (wow, that’s easy to write down!)


Ain't it just :-D


I've only done a BX, and didn't manage to get the manifold out. On engines with the intercooler over the top the air inlet obscures the bolt in the centre. Haynes amusingly suggests you can get it out with a cut down allen key :rofl2: When I eventually got the head off (with the manifolds and turbo in place, which makes it 'kin heavy!!), the only way I could get the bolt out was with a large pair of stilsons, heat, and a lot of persuasion. No way was it ever coming out on the car!!

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by kenbw2 » 03 Oct 2018, 14:19

Thanks for the help guys. I'll definitely get hold of a Haynes for another XUD9. I always forget they exist because there was never one made for the Synergie/Dispatch :roll:

I look forward to hitting with a hammer that which it says "gently prise away"

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by white exec » 03 Oct 2018, 15:27

I've done NA XUD head (on BX) twice, once for a new HG, then finally for a new head. Not done a turbo XUD9 though. Was all straightforward, given some reasonable tools, and I did it using only Haynes (which, for that era, was actually detailed and helpful).

Vaguely remember tilting the engine forward to provide better bulkhead-backend access, but that was BX.

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by ken newbold » 03 Oct 2018, 20:29

Personally I'd rather change the complete thing rather than struggle to get the head off. Some garages will pull the lump out as it makes access easier on these cars. However, it's worth considering buying a belt or scrounging a secondhand one from me and replacing the camshaft. We've had about at 60% success rate by doing this. You'd also need the camshaft bearing caps as some of them will be broken as well.

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by NewcastleFalcon » 03 Oct 2018, 21:03

When I tackled mine CitroenXM (Paul) advised doing a push down test of the valves.
You WILL very likely have valve damage, however, you can test this with the head on by pressing down on each valve... if it push's down and comes back up smoothly, then the valve stem will be fine!

With a replacement cam and caps, firstly, ensure the caps DO fit, as these are macined as a Set from factory, you may have to open a cap bearing out to make it fit... tighten the cap bolts and check cam shaft movment, make sure you can still turn it easilly...

The only way to open the cap out is to sandpapaer it out but be sure to clean it up throughly before fitting it..

Paul
The pistons will have to be halfway down the bore doing the test

7 out of 8 on mine passed the push down test. One of them was slightly bent so no alternative but to remove the head.

If 8 out of 8 pass the push down test, then there could be a possibility of a less fraught "repair" replacing the camshaft and the bearing caps.

Regards Neil

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by ken newbold » 07 Oct 2018, 17:18

Dunno why I'm bothering to reply but I have a set of camshaft bearing caps for free if you can be bothered to come and get them, failing that they're out for the caravan dwellers next week.

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by kenbw2 » 08 Oct 2018, 11:11

ken newbold wrote:
07 Oct 2018, 17:18
Dunno why I'm bothering to reply but I have a set of camshaft bearing caps for free if you can be bothered to come and get them, failing that they're out for the caravan dwellers next week.


Thanks for the offer. I do have a full XUD9 (albeit N/A) to use, so I don't think I'll need to replace the bearings.

Need to get these head bolts off first...

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Re: My XUD9TE timing belt snapped. Nothing to lose, so gonna have a go at replacing the head. Got a few questions.

Post by Pug_XUD_KeenAmateur » 08 Oct 2018, 11:27

there's not much love out there for the XUD9 NA in general, but I'm a fan and have done 150k-ish in two 405 estates a ZX and a 309, all na's, since 2006. Am doing my best to keep the current 405, since 2011 on the road indefinitely.... which currently amounts to a prioritised list of welding jobs.

One of the hardest bits of any job, as I think maybe you'll quickly realise, is poor access; hence the preference sometimes for engine out works.

I don't know much about the Synergie but on the 405na the exhaust manifold to downpipe joint isn't much fun. Its everso easy to drop the entire exhaust though.

Measures as simple as cutting spanners in half, shortening a cheap ratchet or using Reducers/Extenders on a socket and extension to give a useful length can be a big help.