Rough idle with clutch up.

[Titch64]

Hello all and happy new year.

I am having a problem with idle on my c5 2.2hdi. The problem is after the car is at working temp and stop with the car out of gear and clutch up the idle is as if its firing on 3, put the clutch peddle down and it idles OK. If I push the clutch down and up a few times at standstill it goes after a while and idles OK with clutch up or down. Drive of and stop and it happens again. No shaking of gear stick or vibration through peddle and clutch doesn't feel like its slipping. Is there a sensor that could be breaking down and where are they? Has anyone had this problem or know what the problem could be? Any help would be greatfull.

[GiveMeABreak]

Are you sure this isn't the Dual Mass Flywheel - you will get more vibration from the clutch pedal with the car in neutral and the clutch pedal released. If the DMF is badly worn it can sound quite rough - with the risk of it breaking up. Then it becomes expensive if parts start flying off into the bell housing. You haven't said what year the car is - so if it is a MK II facelift (late 2004 to 2007) and has 6 speed gearbox, next time you are out, try some heavy acceleration in 6th gear and see if that produces any slipping effect.

[white exec]

Does sound like DMF has developed slop.

[Titch64]

Thanks for the reply. I have no vibration at all at the Peddle and no noise that gives any indercation its the DMF, wouldn't this happen all the time of a bad DMF? The car is a 2009 C5 2.2 hid.

[white exec]

If it is the DMF, you wouldn't necessarily feel vibration at the pedal, as the clutch friction plate (and release bearing) might still be running freely and true, but there is rotational backlash (slop) between the two halves of the flywheel, which the internal springing isn't taking up.

Might also be worth checking gearbox oil is ok and up to level, and not containing anything nasty looking. Signs of wear/backlash in a manual 'box usually show up by the noise being there in neutral/idle, becoming less so when clutch is pressed, and more or less disappearing when the gearstick is moved into a gear without letting the clutch up.

Difficulties doing hill starts (particularly steep ones) smoothly, without using higher-than-usual engine revs, are also a sign that the DMF is going sloppy.

[lexi]

If it is the first of the 2.2 hdi, there are problems with swirl valve. Can't remember what the symptoms are again.

[Titch64]

Thank you for the answers. Is there a clutch switch on the clutch peddle like on other cars and if so would this cause a problem like this? Wouldn't the dmf slop not be there all the time?

[Titch64]

If it is a dmf any ideas of the cost to replace with new clutch etc?

[GiveMeABreak]

On the C5 X7 (MK III), you will feel vibration through the clutch pedal - mine did and got worse just before I had it replaced. But as I mentioned earlier - there was also some slip in higher gear that got worse. When it was done, the clutch was actually ok, but the DMF plates were very loose and easy to turn - where the springs had weakened as Chris (WhiteExec) says. Had both replaced together.

Don't expect much change out of a Grand for the parts - it's the flywheel that is the killer and the labour - the clutch kit (the OEM Citroen one was cheaper than a lot of aftermarket ones). If you post up or PM your VIN, I'll be able to confirm parts prices for you (minus labour). In the interim, the following are current Citroen prices for a 2008 2.2 C5 X7 - so may well be the same - but the VIN will confirm.

Clutch Kit
New £309.40 inc. VAT
Exchange £228 Inc.

DMF:
New: £956.45 Inc.
Exchange: 562.80 Inc

And yes these do have a clutch switch - but I'm not sure how this could cause an issue like that. It's usually to prevent starting when in gear and also disengages the Cruise control when the clutch is depressed.

Explore and try and eliminate everything else first and check what Lexi has suggested too.

[white exec]

Jacking up a wheel, in gear, and rotating it back and forth, might let you detect rattle/looseness/backlash in the flywheel area.

[Titch64]

Thank you both for your a replay. Before I go down the path of f!flywheel replacement could there be anything g else it could be? Is there a clutch sensor of any kind d that could be failing or hydrolics ticking?

[wurlycorner]

£956/£562 for a flywheel?!
Gosh, those prices are enough to scare anyone off and no need to pay that much...

Try £479.99 at eurocarparts (before discount - or £359 after!) Much better


I must admit that my first thought based on those symptoms, was DMF. But I sure as hell wouldn't just dive in and replace that much kit until I was sure it was the cause. I'd suggest a trip to a renowned Citroen (or Peugeot, since its just drivetrain related) specialist, to get their opinion on the car in the metal.

[GiveMeABreak]

Yes, but you have to bear in mind Iain that Titch64's car is a 2.2 X7 and the flywheel for those is more expensive:

The DMF from Eurocarparts for Titch64's X7 is £791.78 and £659.99 AFTER discount!!!

Compare with the OEM flywheel for my 2.0 X7 - £378.64! brand new or 292.32! for an exchange.... cheaper than your Eurocarparts - not that I'd recommend them for anything after the hassle I've had with every single order from them - opened, damaged, missing parts - no way will I ever use them again!

That's why I suggested checking everything else first - Those prices are OEM of course, new and exchange - but I would shop about.

I guess bigger engine - needs to be a stronger Flywheel to handle the extra power.

[Titch64]

I have looked around and found LUK (I believe to be a good make)DMF for 350 and clutch kit for 180 both on discount at present so it does show to shop about. Going to book a diagnostics to check that sensors etc is breaking down or for them to confirm clutch/flywheel. Hopefully a simple fix like a sensor

[GiveMeABreak]

Just make sure you get the correct flywheel - as I've said they are all different depending on engine. If you post your VIN or PM it I will get you the OEM part number - otherwise it's a lot of hassle sending it back.