c5 turbo cut out

sijrayner · Post by **sijrayner** » 31 Mar 2010, 12:55

this forum seems more on the ball than the "car club" as far as tech help goes. i own a c5 2.2 hdi. from start up it drives perfectly for about 10 mins, then i get esp/asr warning and car goes into limp mode. it has been on a lexia which said, turbo circuit short/open. the guy said he suspects 2 valves which read the pressure either side of the turbo ?
does anyone have any ideas, also is there a manual available (in english).
can anyone identify for me the 2 valve like things on the front of the engine, they are attached to the inlet manifold and a pair of large diameter pipes. on the side of them are small vacuum pipes leading to i do not know where. they are situated one above the other and the lower one is covered in oil and crud. the metal pipe running around the top of engine, is this the egr pipe, is it worth removing it and cleaning it out as i have seen this mentioned elsewhere.
tks for any help, i am almost giving up.

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 31 Mar 2010, 20:35

sijrayner wrote:-
this forum seems more on the ball than the "car club" as far as tech help goes. i own a c5 2.2 hdi. from start up it drives perfectly for about 10 mins, then i get esp/asr warning and car goes into limp mode. it has been on a lexia which said, turbo circuit short/open.

If the esp/asr alarm appears the first time you put your foot down to accelerate then you probably have a turbo overboost situation. This is probably a fault with the vacuum pipe from the vacuum solenoid to the turbo. Or it could be a fault with the solenoid itself which would make more sense and is probably why the Lexia reports a short/Open circuit on the solenoid.
The vacuum solenoid for the turbo is mounted on the bulkhead by the left front suspension sphere.

the guy said he suspects 2 valves which read the pressure either side of the turbo ?

There is only one valve to measure boost pressure and this is mounted on top of the intercooler which is found at the front of the engine compartment by the air filter box.

does anyone have any ideas, also is there a manual available (in english).

There is a haynes manual for the C5 but it doesn't cover the 2.2 Hdi engine. But, I'm told the Haynes manual for the Peugeot 406 does.

can anyone identify for me the 2 valve like things on the front of the engine, they are attached to the inlet manifold and a pair of large diameter pipes. on the side of them are small vacuum pipes leading to i do not know where. they are situated one above the other and the lower one is covered in oil and crud.

These two valves are part of the Particulate filter system. Normally the air from the turbo comes through the intercooler and then through one of these valves into the inlet manifold, but, when the Particulate filter is regenerated these two valves swap state and the turbo boost air doesn't go through the intercooler, it goes direct into the inlet manifold and is heated by the water in the radiator on the way. This ensures that the combustion is as hot as possible during regeneration.

the metal pipe running around the top of engine, is this the egr pipe, is it worth removing it and cleaning it out as i have seen this mentioned elsewhere.

My EGR pipe is full of black sooty gunge and I haven't bothered to clean it. I'm not sure it would make much difference.

tks for any help, i am almost giving up.

So, to sum up, you may need a new turbo control solenoid to restore boost control and prevent the overboost which I would guess is the problem.

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 31 Mar 2010, 22:39

sijrayner wrote:this forum seems more on the ball than the "car club" as far as tech help goes. i own a c5 2.2 hdi. from start up it drives perfectly for about 10 mins, then i get esp/asr warning and car goes into limp mode. it has been on a lexia which said, turbo circuit short/open. the guy said he suspects 2 valves which read the pressure either side of the turbo ?
does anyone have any ideas, also is there a manual available (in english).
can anyone identify for me the 2 valve like things on the front of the engine, they are attached to the inlet manifold and a pair of large diameter pipes. on the side of them are small vacuum pipes leading to i do not know where. they are situated one above the other and the lower one is covered in oil and crud. the metal pipe running around the top of engine, is this the egr pipe, is it worth removing it and cleaning it out as i have seen this mentioned elsewhere.
tks for any help, i am almost giving up.

Your problem is almost certainly caused by a turbo overboost condition which will be due to a lack of vacuum to the turbo modulator actuator.

Now the vac supply to the turbo has it's own resevoir which it shares with the swirl valve actuator, so a failure in either the swirl valve system or the turbo piping can cause this problem.

It is my belief based upon my own experience that at anything above 60K miles there is a strong probability that the swirl valve diaphragm has started to fail, causing a loss ov vacuum which varies with swirl valve position.

Ideally to check this you need a vac gage and some odd bits of rubber pipe.

I have written at length on this if you do a search in the Citroen forum on subject :- swirl valves and cachaciero as author you will find threads which will tell you what to do and how to do it. Any questions don't hesitate

.

EDIT

Manuals:- there are available on E-Bay copies of the Citroen Electronics Parts List (EPL) These contain not only the parts diagrams but also a substantial if not all Citroens official maintenance procedures for the C5.
You can get these for about a tenner, they are bootleg copies so to install them on your computer requires a little bit of fiddling but the result is worth it.

cachaciero

sijrayner · Post by **sijrayner** » 01 Apr 2010, 11:18

tks very much for the helpful and detailed replies gentlemen. i struggled with the epl cd's as they only seem to come for fairly generic citroen cars, also so far i have only found the 406 haynes manual stating ' not for 2.0 and 2.2 engines' great. i think i will check out the solenoid and pipework connected to it and will probably (cost allowing ) replace that to begin with.
tks again.

i am ok with older engines but this talk of swirl valves etc without the aid of pictures and text (eg a manual) is all a bit beyond me as i do not even know what these things look like. i may try to find this swirl valve diaphragm as the car has done 130k.

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 01 Apr 2010, 11:36

For info on how the 2.2 Hdi works take a look at this link.

http://www.citroenet.org.uk/

Go to... 'production cars'.. 'C5'.. 'technical information 3 - diesel engine'

sijrayner · Post by **sijrayner** » 01 Apr 2010, 13:12

have bought a vacuum solenoid, will fit over easter and let you know if any different. this is now a case of mind over matter and i do not like to be beaten so will persevere.

sijrayner · Post by **sijrayner** » 01 Apr 2010, 19:29

hello again. just got home with new turbo solenoid control, uncovered the side you said only to find there are three solenoids there all look the same, the only difference seems to be the electrical connectors are three different colours. pls can you tell me which one it is i am replacing.

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 01 Apr 2010, 21:27

The turbo vacuum solenoid is this one:-

sijrayner · Post by **sijrayner** » 01 Apr 2010, 22:38

Kev, you are "THE MAN" i would have your babies and if my wife wasn't already pregnant she would too. tks mate.

sijrayner · Post by **sijrayner** » 05 Apr 2010, 19:22

update, well i fitted a new turbo vacuum solenoid and went for a drive.
disappointment rained down when after the usual ten minutes the warning lights came on and car went into limp mode as before. think i will have to look into the vacuum diaphragm. thought it would be too easy to just be the solenoid. i think this will continue later.

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 05 Apr 2010, 21:37

That's bad luck.

But, If it's not the vacuum solenoid itself then maybe it's a problem with the wiring to the solenoid because, in your original post you said that the Lexia reports 'turbo circuit short/open'.

This sounds like a wiring problem (if not the solenoid itself).

I think that if the vacuum diaphragm were split you'd get an overboost reported and I wouldn't have thought that the Lexia would have said anything about the turbo circuit.

sijrayner · Post by **sijrayner** » 06 Apr 2010, 08:31

good point Kev, not sure how i would test for that but maybe return to garage.

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 06 Apr 2010, 09:27

In the failed swirl valve scenario the vacuum for control of both the turbo and swirl valve is common a loss of vac in one is a loss of vacuum in both. With no vacuum for control the turbo will overboosts. The ECU picks this up because the actual Turbo Boost is outside of the map. Further because overboost is a potentially engine damaging condition it goes one stage further and restricts the engine operating range such that engine damage will not occur so called LIMP mode.
The Lexia will obviously report the overboost error.

I am not surprised that changing the EV has not resolved the problem EV failure is not common.

As I said early before changing bits you need to identify where exactly the problems lies. the O/P has done the right thing initialy in getting an ECU read out now it is only a question of a few basic checks. All that is required is a vacuum gage some odd lengths of suitable sized plastic pipe and some plastic T piece joiners, the latter can be got from B&Q and Vac guages can be purchased at most good autosuppliers but it does'nt have to anything special I use an old aircraft altimeter an old aircraft boost gauge or (the best one ) an aircon vac gage depends which I find first in the rubbish tip know as the garage.

However there is a check that you can do even without the gauge. The swirl valve control Electro Valve is on the side of the engine adjacent to the swirl valves. You will need to remove the rubber inlet pipe from the mass flow housing and you will then be able to see the swirl valve EV. Take the pipe of the top of the EV complete with rubber sleeve this is the vac supply to the valve now find a piece of plastic dowel or metal rod even a bolt of size which you can use too insert into the rubber sleeve, the idea being to seal it completely. Replace inlet duct and go and drive the car, you might find it less than lively at the bottom end but if the turbo is now working correctly you wil not get the messages and the car will not go into LIMP mode.

cachaciero

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 06 Apr 2010, 09:39

KevMayer wrote:That's bad luck.

But, If it's not the vacuum solenoid itself then maybe it's a problem with the wiring to the solenoid because, in your original post you said that the Lexia reports 'turbo circuit short/open'.

This sounds like a wiring problem (if not the solenoid itself).

I think that if the vacuum diaphragm were split you'd get an overboost reported and I wouldn't have thought that the Lexia would have said anything about the turbo circuit.

Fix it in your mind Kev no vacuum no worky

These cars run on diesel and vacuum.

If the turbo overboosts the only message you will get in the car is the standard AntiPollution message and the engine will go into LIMP mode. The Lexia will be able to read the stored error code which will have recorded the turbo overboost and that is what it will say.
The lexia has no way of knowing that there is no vacuum because strangely given it's importance there is no vacuum sensor to feed data to the ECU.

cachaciero

sijrayner · Post by **sijrayner** » 06 Apr 2010, 11:10

ok so i need to check for vacuum pressure. tks for the instructions i will try to get into this sometime this week.

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